DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

This is the Comitia (members' council) of the Societas Via Romana. While guests may read this forum, only registered members of the SVR may post or vote here.

Moderators: Aldus Marius, Valerius Claudius Iohanes

DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:27 am

Salvete, qui iam hoc in sito restant.

Timavus (Benefactor Novi Siti) has proposed elsewhere that we recognize the absurdity of trying to apply the old Regulae Fundamentales to a Sodalitas made up of only a handful of semi-active members. I hope, Timave, that you don't mind me doing this in your place. Since no elections were held, there are no proper officials, and plainly the Regula are not being observed - and indeed, they no longer have their role to play. De facto, we're simply a group of 'old-timers' meeting at a favorite old haunt.

Until the poll on on having elections, I had not realized the disjuncture there was between the few active folk and the "great, uninterested masses". It's possible the SVR may be revived - if it were to be, it would follow some new surge of interest, and would involve new folk. In meantime I think we did right in preserving what it was.

But, re the Regula, they're a dead letter. And I'd like to wrap that up formally. I'm going to offer a Stipulation that we can vote on and that, if carried by a simple majority, will be published here and recorded in the Regulae section on the SVR website.


STIPULATED, by the active Sodales still in attendance at the Fora and the Comitia of the Societas Via Romana, that as of the Kalends Ianuariae AUC 2763 no officers have been elected to serve, that per Regulas the prior officers' terms have all expired, and that as of this hour we recognize that the Regulae Fundamentales are no longer in effect.
STIPULATED ALSO, that the surviving active Sodales shall govern and maintain the Societas Via Romana as needed by means of a simple democracy, until such time as these Stipulations are superseded.


Please, if you agree, post your agreement. If you disagree, that also.

Valete, amici.
Valerius Claudius Iohannes
Curator anno MMDCCLXII
Centurio Honorarius Societatis

:: Adversitas bono viro intelligentiam docet. ::
User avatar
Valerius Claudius Iohanes
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:28 am
Location: Sancti Leandri Oppidum, California Franciscencis, Conpactae Civitates Americae

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Aldus Marius on Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:40 am

Uti Rogas, Iohanne magister; uti rogas. (That's only one vote; the other one's the echo in the auditorium.)

I'll go one further: I don't see the need for -cracy of any sort. I think it's silly to have anything subject to a vote when it takes us a week and a half to scare up seven voters on a measure that needed at least ten to show up. Not ten "pro", not ten "con"...ten voters *total* out of 97 Sodales. We couldn't do it. The four Sodales who've joined since the poll closed out are off the hook. So's anyone who actually voted in the poll, and the fifteen or so people who have even visited the Forum this year. The rest of you...what are you doing here besides cluttering up the database?

Make my day--speak up.
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Cleopatra Aelia on Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:29 pm

I guess that most people who sign up at this board will use it like any other forum on the internet was well. That they could read about and discuss topics they are interested in and that they so find people with like-minded interests. All other boards function with an administrator and several moderators which do not need to be elected. So they do not bother with these regula you had set up here because the majority does not want to recreate the Roman policy virtually but just use it as a forum.

I always said that this takes too much energy out of the forum. The main focus of the remaining active members should be how to revive this board and make it interesting to newbies as well. And with quabbles about elections that will turn people away.
Cleopatra Aelia
alias Medusa Gladiatrix
User avatar
Cleopatra Aelia
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:57 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germania

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Marcus Lupinius Paulus on Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:49 pm

I agree with Iohannes and Marius. It really is just recognizing the situation as it exists.

Paulus
User avatar
Marcus Lupinius Paulus
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:59 am
Location: Maryland

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:26 am

Avete, Sodales -

Yes, indeed, to recognize the situation - call a spatha a spatha, you might say - put a proper cap on the Regula - and the era which we've seen fade into absurdity. If we preserve the Regula on line, so it seems to me, there should be an acknowledgment there, too. :|

If the barest majority is seen, I'll ask Civis Marius to chisel the little Stips in above the Regula. >({|;-)

The winds stir the dust of the Societas.... But it is nice to get a few live responses!

Valete.
Valerius Claudius Iohannes
Curator anno MMDCCLXII
Centurio Honorarius Societatis

:: Adversitas bono viro intelligentiam docet. ::
User avatar
Valerius Claudius Iohanes
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:28 am
Location: Sancti Leandri Oppidum, California Franciscencis, Conpactae Civitates Americae

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:41 am

It would entail more than a comment on the Regula page. I'd basically have to redo anything on the site that states or implies that we are an actual entity, with memberships and a constitution. The application form (and process) would go. The Webmail would be for site issues, article submissions if any, and information requests. Would we even maintain an Album Sodalium as such? Would people here still need Roman names? The Board's Comitia section would need to be repurposed; without formal memberships or elections, I'd see no reason to limit access to it. With no Regula and no officers, there'd be nothing to administer but our front end itself (Board, site, or other incarnation[s]).

And there'd be no more freakin' Censuses!!! >({|x-b

Random thought: What would we do with the Forum? Do we really need this whole BB3 setup to handle the current participation level? I could see it as an archive of past discussions; we have a lot of educational and entertaining material here, the sum of our Roman experiences, and if that is not preserved the last nine years will have been for nothing. But our present needs could probably be met just fine on a mailing-list service such as Listserv, Topica (where we began) or Yahoo Groups. How, then, would we integrate the two? OTOH, if we stay with the Forum we won't have that problem...a case could be made either way.

Whether "no Regula" changes everything or almost nothing, however, it does raise the questions of what the Societas *is* at its core, and what it would mean to be a "member" of it, however defined. Then again, these have always been recurring themes for us. Every time we've tweaked the bylaws, it's been a try for better answers. Maybe we'll finally find something that'll stick.
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:28 am

I'd like to suggest that we keep the Comitia limited because I fear, perhaps I am paranoid, that under a pure democracy we could be "invaded" by a manus of only five or so new sodales who could then make decisions without any love of the Societas to guide them. Let us require members to have registered a year before before becoming sodales with access to the Comitia. What do you think?

Timavus
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator, Rogator, Praetor et Patricius
Civis Romanus Sum
User avatar
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:14 pm
Location: America Italiaque

The Power of One?

Postby Aldus Marius on Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:03 am

Salvete omnes,

Decisions about what? About the Forum and the Web site? For that, you have a manus of two: Tibi Draco and myself. Sans the Regula, sans a governmental structure of any kind, there would be no decisions to make about the Societas itself. No elections, no laws, no edicts, no appointments, no Curia, no Comitia, no Censuses, no memberships. We would be on paper what we are now in practice: a Web site with attached message-board. Register it, host it, check the links, update the content. What's to decide, except for either replacing me or finding us some expert help?

'Course, if we keep the Regula, or come up with some other formal definition of membership, I suppose you could make somebody wait a year from the date of Board registration to the effective date of actual membership. You could. But that'd be shooting ourselves in the foot. Most new people will have faded long before then, and we'll have denied ourselves the talent and services of the remainder. The last thing the Societas needs is to suffocate the newbies. The second-to-last thing it needs is to make more work for the admin--or whoever you thought was going to keep track of when everyone's one-year probation was up.

In fide,
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:03 am

Salvete, Sodales -

There's no need to re-do the SVR over this. No need to tear anything down, or hunt up all references to the Regula or to us as the SVR. The Stipulations were intended to be our own formal recognition that the Regula - as they stand - are not functional (we have no officers and not even a proper quorum necessary to vote on an issue, etc.).

In my first post, I said: "... the Regula, they're a dead letter." But I should have said,
    "... the Regula, they're in abeyance for now."
I didn't mean we should dump them; but it seemed to me although they are not in effect, yet should not be ignored. Doing nothing is just that - ignoring them. And so, if we, as the Active Sodales, recognize the situation, then it's not just anarchy.

In that post, I also put in the Stipulations that they would be made
    "... by the active Sodales still in attendance at the Fora and the Comitia of the Societas Via Romana....."
That's us - active, on the Forum, in the Comitia.

As to the question of some hooligans taking over the SVR, there are three impediments to that:
1. You have to be a Sodalis to attend the Comitia which is our current authority - us;
2. The existing Sodales (except for us) don't care; and
3. The only persons (as Marius pointed out) with any actual power are himself and Tiberius Draco.

But it may well be that I am simply over-focused on the Regula, having had to focus on those during my tenure. And it may be that debating them is the very thing Cleo warned us of in her post:
"... quabbles about elections that will turn people away."

So, again, vote them up or down? Or modify them? Or tell Iohannes to get off his rostrum? Quid censtitis?
Valerius Claudius Iohannes
Curator anno MMDCCLXII
Centurio Honorarius Societatis

:: Adversitas bono viro intelligentiam docet. ::
User avatar
Valerius Claudius Iohanes
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:28 am
Location: Sancti Leandri Oppidum, California Franciscencis, Conpactae Civitates Americae

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Aldus Marius on Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:54 am

> "... the Regula, they're in abeyance for now."

*blinks*

*restrains the Combat Poodle and the Public Horse*

...Oh. Not an Undo; an interregnum. We can do that; we have once before--no, make that twice. In 2756-7 / 2003-4, we actually had an interrex ('twas Q Claudius Locatus) for the month or so before the actual magistrates took office. In 2758 / 2005, of course, there was the whole Concilium situation. We have the ingredients to set up something like an interregnum again, made up of equal parts law and practice.

Relevant acta of the Societas:
2756: Elections Voided
2756: Senatusconsultum authorising appointment of an interrex
2756: Appointment of Interrex
2758: Unconstitutional dissolution of government; establishment of Concilium

I find the suggested Stipulations a much tidier way of accomplishing the same end. If I understand them correctly, the active Sodales as a group get to be the "interrex". I like it. Count me in.

In fide,
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:34 pm

Sounds good to me. The active sodales are who, exactly?
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator, Rogator, Praetor et Patricius
Civis Romanus Sum
User avatar
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:14 pm
Location: America Italiaque

The Book of (Forum) Life

Postby Aldus Marius on Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:45 am

Salvete magistri,

Certe, anyone who has posted to this thread is a "currently active Sodalis". There may be others; besides us, we have had 11 Sodales visit the Forum this year, for a total of 16, and almost all of them have posted. (We have one newbie who hasn't yet; but she and I have been corresponding about the site, so I know she's still interested.)

Visitors this year (as of 10 Apr):

  • Tiberius Livius Nero (2 posts), Jan 05, 2010
  • Lucia Livia Plauta (39 posts), Jan 06, 2010
  • Gaius Iulius Tabernarius (88), Jan 20, 2010
  • Tiberius Dionysius Draco (458), Mar 10, 2010
  • Marcus Octavius Gracchus (14), Mar 31, 2010
  • Gnaeus Dionysius Draco (1618), Mar 14, 2010
  • Caius Aelius Ericius (61), Mar 17, 2010 9:12 pm
  • Aula Iunia Gallica (0), Mar 19, 2010
  • Spurius Mamilius Lucanus (27), Mar 22, 2010
  • Caia Valeria Aenea (4), Apr 02, 2010
  • Quintus Servilius Priscus (208), Apr 07, 2010
  • Cleopatra Aelia (351), Apr 08, 2010
  • Marcus Lupinius Paulus (169), Apr 09, 2010
  • Primus Aurelius Timavus (513), Apr 10, 2010
  • Valerius Claudius Iohanes (666), Apr 10, 2010
  • Aldus Marius (2150), Apr 10, 2010
We've also had five Sodales register here (four of them in the last month) who haven't actually visited yet. Hence, as with so much else around here, it depends on how you're counting. I'll let the management make that call.

In fide,
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:02 am

Well, how about everyone on your list, plus the four newbies who registered in the last month, plus any conditores who haven't visited recently? That would be a good start. If any folks who would qualify ex officio show up, like maybe Piscinus, and show interest, we could later add them to the list.

Timavus
User avatar
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:14 pm
Location: America Italiaque

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:29 pm

Salvete, Quirites -

Of course - I was forgetting my SVR history - the Interrex! And Marius divined it better than I - in effect, given these 'res novae' of late, an Interrex would be the answer. Why didn't I think of that? (Well, you don't have to answer that question! :wink: )

As to who is active, and thereby who will be part of this 'group Interrex', this 'cor Sodalitatis' if I may, I think we might do well to err on the exclusive side: Include (1) those who answered the poll on elections http://www.societasviaromana.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1877 and (2) those on Marius's list, above. These folk have at least been here and given a nod or a glance. Primave, I think that adding others who are distracted and uninterested in all this stuff - as they may well be, as Cleo pointed out - would once again just cloud the process.

Not that there's necessarily a whole lot to process, at this stage.

Quid censitis, Quirites?
Valerius Claudius Iohannes
Curator anno MMDCCLXII
Centurio Honorarius Societatis

:: Adversitas bono viro intelligentiam docet. ::
User avatar
Valerius Claudius Iohanes
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:28 am
Location: Sancti Leandri Oppidum, California Franciscencis, Conpactae Civitates Americae

Secrecy of the Ballot

Postby Aldus Marius on Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:13 am

Avete, amici magistri,

I'm afraid "those who answered the poll on elections" is going to be a rather elusive group to pin down...or did you mean the discussion topic and not the poll itself? Not even the Mighty Admin gets to see who voted how on the poll; just totals and percentages--thank goodness! >' ({(:-)
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Valerius Claudius Iohanes on Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:20 am

Ohhhhhhhh..... :oops: I just figured the admins can see everything!

And Primavus mentioned the Conditores - which makes sense to me.
Valerius Claudius Iohannes
Curator anno MMDCCLXII
Centurio Honorarius Societatis

:: Adversitas bono viro intelligentiam docet. ::
User avatar
Valerius Claudius Iohanes
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:28 am
Location: Sancti Leandri Oppidum, California Franciscencis, Conpactae Civitates Americae

Waiting for Godot

Postby Aldus Marius on Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:08 pm

Salvete amici,

Some of the Conditores haven't been here in four years. I don't suggest waiting on them. In any case, didn't we agree, a long long time ago (the year of Gn Draco's retirement and the Concilium reforms) that the Society has and should have no Indispensable Men? Really, I think at least part of why they've faded (those who have) was to wean us off of them, to make room for others--us--to take the lead, to break away from having to carry the ultimate responsibility and accountability for this place. We do neither the absent Conditores nor the Societas any favors by sitting around waiting for them to come back and save us.


> I just figured the admins can see everything!


Na; and some of the things I *can* see, I wish I hadn't!! >({|;-]

In fide,
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:48 pm

OK, anybody object to making the folks on Marius' list interreges? Let's wrap this up...
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator, Rogator, Praetor et Patricius
Civis Romanus Sum
User avatar
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:14 pm
Location: America Italiaque

Re: DEMOCRACY! with very little Demo-....

Postby Aldus Marius on Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:27 am

Publius Valerius Regulus stopped by on 12 April and made his second post.

If only he'd been a Sodalis...

But Yes, mi Timave, I'm all for wrapping this up.
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance


Return to Comitia

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron