Proposed Name Changes for the Collegia

This is the Comitia (members' council) of the Societas Via Romana. While guests may read this forum, only registered members of the SVR may post or vote here.

Moderators: Aldus Marius, Valerius Claudius Iohanes

Proposed Name Changes for the Collegia

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:41 pm

Salvete omnes,

Our new member Avitus has suggested changing the names of our collegia. For his reasoning, please read his post in each individual collegium. Discussion of possible name changes should take place in the Comitia since such changes must reflect the collective will of the sodales. I would like to invite all sodales to comment on Avitus' proposed changes in this thread. Should a consensus develop, we'll follow it. Otherwise, we'll later open a poll to resolve any controversy.

Briefly, Avitus suggests the following changes for the Collegia:

Historicum -> Historiae
Religionem et Philosophiarum -> Religionis et Philosophiae
Vitae Quotidianae -> Vitae Cotidianae
Ludi Societatis -> Ludi Nostrae Societatis
Linguarum Antiquarum -> Lingarum et Litterarum
Artium et Letterarum -> Artium

Note that the last two name changes also include the substantive change of shifting literature from the collegim about art to the collegium about language.

Please let us know your thoughts.

Tergestus
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator, Rogator, Praetor et Patricius
Civis Romanus Sum
User avatar
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:14 pm
Location: America Italiaque

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:04 pm

Salvete omnes,

My personal view is that we should adopt all of Avitus' new names except that we should NOT move literature to the Collegium Litterarum. First, literature is undoubtedly one of the major media of art that has come down to us. To remove it from the Collegium Artium would eviscerate any discussion of Roman art. From a practical point of view, a collegium devoted solely to art not including literature would be viable in the sense that it would tend to have minimal postings.

Tergestus
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator, Rogator, Praetor et Patricius
Civis Romanus Sum
User avatar
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:14 pm
Location: America Italiaque

Postby Q Valerius on Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:15 am

I thought I advised this to be changed awhile ago. I don't know why it never was. You can see the thread here.

However, I think it may have been a simple mistake of religionum to religionem; the prior being correct, bearing in mind that they were both supposed to be plural "College of Religions and Philosophies". I would not be opposed to making it singular.

Also, I personally dislike Quintilian for his inability to recognize Lucretius as the greatest Latin poet of all time, favoring the cliche "Vergil". Quot* v. cot* was one of those archaicizing features that I love that never returned after the QV v. C shift (cf. cum/quom, cur/quor etc...). In all honesty, it would be better Latin to change it.

Another difference was cottid* v. cotid*, the former preferred by Plautus, Nepos, Sallust, and Pliny the Elder, while the latter clearly preferred by Cicero and the majority of Roman authors. So, my vote goes to cotidiane.

I see no reason why to add "our" to the Games of the Society - it is not only implied but preferred for conciseness so fond of the Romans. It was rarely "our republic" but overwhelmingly "the republic".

I do agree, however, that Linguarum Antiquarum should be changed to Linguarum et Litterarum. I also use that convention at my forum, since undoubtedly language and literature are rarely separated. In fact, they depend on each other.

But instead of leaving artium alone, I further propose adding architecture to the college as well.
Q Valerius
Eques
Eques
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:06 am

Name-changes

Postby Aldus Marius on Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:41 am

Salve, mi Scerio, et Salvete omnes!

Scerio, I am so glad you showed up just now! You and Piscinus were, of course, in on the discussion that got our Collegium names into their present shape. We revised them a time or two before everyone was convinced we'd gotten them right, or at least that the names said what we needed them to say. I won't claim they're perfect even now, but everyone understands them and they get the job done.

Religionem-->Religionum: Bene, it does look like I missed a stitch here, doesn't it? That was the new name that we agreed upon; I'll fix it before I log off tonight. 'Nuff said!

Cot-/Quot-: I gotta love Quintilian. He's a pleb, a Roman of the Empire, and he's from Hispania. Thanks to him, this plebeian Flavian-Antonine Hispano-Roman has license to pronounce his V's as [v]'s instead of [w]'s. Is it our fault Cicero had a speech impediment? >({|;-)

But I don't agree with him about everything; and in the matter of cot- versus quot-, I am vindicated by history. It is the version "quotidian", not "cotidian", that has survived the centuries to grace our present day. We are already scratching our heads to find a different and more "transparent" name for the CollVQ, one that will tell the novice and the newcomer what it's about. Must we make things more difficult for most of them by presenting the name it has in an archaic spelling, even though preferred?

Latin evolves. Any attempt to completely standardize it is like pinning a butterfly to a wall; the thing is preserved, yes--but it becomes static, losing the very qualities that made it alive and a thing of beauty. This is my chief quarrel with the grammarians, ancient as well as present-day; they want everything to be consistent, to the exclusion of any influences of time, place, or personality. I have posted extensively on this in the Collegium Linguarum Antiquarum: Latin will not truly live until it is allowed to play in the street and get grass-stains on its jeans now and again.

"Antiquarum" (since I'm in the neighborhood): I may say more about this in the thread where it started, but...somehow, I don't think the Romans themselves would have had a problem with calling something "ancient". Quite the reverse. The term did not have its present-day connotations of being used-up, worn-out, obsolete. I find our choice of "Antiquarum" to be much less regrettable than the modern Western attitudes about aging that now make it seem offensive.

Literature: I believe this, as with the Collegium names, has already been extensively discussed, and not just once. Literature was originally supposed to go with Languages; this made sense to me, too, at the time. But in practice, the arrangement fell through, and I'll hazard a guess as to why.

People who talk about literature tend to talk about authors, and themes, and symbolism, and modern analogues. As it happens, this is also the way enthusiasts talk about art in general. The language mavens, otoh, generally focus on particulars of grammar, and structure, and teaching techniques, and the best resources for students. We need both kinds of discussion, and I have participated in the Collegium Linguarum to the full extent I am constructively able to. But even though both camps are working with the same material, the contrast between these two approaches could hardly be greater. Hence my conviction that "Litterarum" goes with "Artium". It is the difference between striping a road and driving on it.

Architecture: has belonged to the CollArt all along; anyone like to start a discussion there...? >({|:-)

In amicitia et fide,
Last edited by Aldus Marius on Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Postby Cleopatra Aelia on Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:13 pm

Salvete Omnes,

I agree with Marius and Tergestus that the litterature should stay in the college of arts and NOT to be moved to the college of (ancient) languages.

I also prefer Marius' spelling of "quotidian" instead of "cotidian". The first looks more familiar to me, more Latin to my taste, while the latter resembles more Spanish.

I also agree with Marius that it should still be linguam antiquarum, otherwise we could discuss there also matters of English, French, Spanish and German etc. So it makes clear that it's a college for ancient language opposed to modern languages.

Valete,
Cleopatra Aelia
alias Medusa Gladiatrix
User avatar
Cleopatra Aelia
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:57 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germania

Postby Curio Agelastus on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:32 am

On the Latin grammar I shall refrain from commenting, since I'm not a Latinist. However, I do believe that literature should stay with the other arts. I also think the languages part should be ancient.

However, it's not that important. We've discussed linguistic trends that have included modern samples before, and we've discussed other modern issues before; since none of us is overly uptight about the fora, I don't think it matters that much.

Bene valete,
Curio.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Agelastus
Rector ColHis, Senator

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
User avatar
Curio Agelastus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:38 pm

Postby Q Valerius on Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:21 am

I have a proposed solution to the cot* v. quot* distinction - I suggest we use the alternative hodierna. This way, the only thing which would require a vote would be the disagreement over Languages and Literature.
Q Valerius
Eques
Eques
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:06 am

Hodierna?

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:48 am

Salve, mi Scerio, et salvete omnes...

Hodierna could work... Collegium Vita Hodierna, like that? Or do I need to tweak the endings a little more?

But then, hodierna doesn't exactly jump up and tell the newbies what it means, any more than quotidiana did. One can at least fake understanding Artium, Historicum et alii...but not our Roman-Daily-Life section. I was wondering if a complete name-overhaul might be called for on this one...?

Willing to work is...
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Postby Q Valerius on Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:59 am

I think hodierna would be more familiar with Latin students, as it was popularized by the "Forum Romanum" fake news broadcasting. And yes, it would be the Collegium Vitae Hodiernae.
Q Valerius
Eques
Eques
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:06 am

Hodierna the Second

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:18 am

Bene, mi Scerio; chalk one up for the Latin students. But what about everybody else? The CollVQ languished last time because nobody could seem to figure out what it was about!

Tryin',
Aldus Marius Peregrinus.
User avatar
Aldus Marius
Curialis
Curialis
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 3:16 am
Location: Within hailing distance

Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:18 pm

It appears that discussion on the proposed name changes has run its course. I will now create polls for each collegium to gauge the sense of the Comitia for each proposed change.
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator, Rogator, Praetor et Patricius
Civis Romanus Sum
User avatar
Primus Aurelius Timavus
Curator
Curator
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:14 pm
Location: America Italiaque


Return to Comitia

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron