Provincia America

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Provincia America

Postby Horatius Piscinus on Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:43 pm

Salvete sodales

In the Senate has been raised once more the question of whether to form a provincia for sodales who reside in the United States. The reason this is brought up is that half our membership is listed as residing in the Americas, almost all being in the US. We are though spread very thin over the region, most but noy all residing in the eastern portion of the US (last time I checked). I do not think it particularly practical at this time, but it is a possibility worth investigating.

So I put it open to the sodales Vesperi. Do we wish to form our first provincia in the Americas? What would be its borders? What name should we call it? What might it mean if we did form a provincia?

A partial answer on the last question would be that we would choose a new senator from this provincia. A web page would be added to the SVR website for the provincia Vesperia which may mean we would need people working with the aediles to build the page. We would begin scheduling regular chat sessions at times convenient for Americans to meet online. In order to have a provincia it is desirable that we hold a face to face meeting as well. The core of any such provincia will be a circle of friends who can hold activities together, so one of the first steps to "organizing" a provincia is seeing whether we can get a few of us together in some town.

In conjunction with this, the consules have been contacted on researching the influence Cicero may have had on the formation of the U. S. Constitution. Actually there would be more to it. But one thing that would likely result is that the web page for this new provincia would include articles about how the Roman Republic came to so influence the early formation of the US, from George Washington insisting that Addison's play "Cato" be performed at Valley Forge to instill morale in his troops, to George Clinton writing in opposition to the adoption of the Constitution under the pseudonym Cato. How many Americans know the phrases, "I regret I have but one life to give for my country," and "Give me Liberty, or give me Death"? But do they know those phrases were quotations from the character Cato at Utica? And of course we would also include something of what the Founding Fathers had to quote from Cicero. You might be surprised a little to know what the Founding Fathers were reading as they began the Revolution.

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Postby Quintus Servilius Priscus on Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:24 pm

I have just re-joined SVR after several months of inactivity. I have been
caught up at the "Other Place" doing a Census of my Province there. I
defintely would like to see a Province estabished in America. In the
"Other Place" I am a Provincial Propraetor. If I can help in helping start
one let me know.

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Provincia Vespera?

Postby Aldus Marius on Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:36 am

[note by Draco: I wanted to type a reply but I accidentally edited your posting instead, so the head and tail of it are lost - my sincerest apologies]

I am not enthusiastic about forming an official U.S. Province at this time. It seems to me that having our own Page, our own Chat, our own everything-else would only serve to enhance the sense of separation already felt by some American sodales at the difficulty of getting together with our European other-selves. The solution to feeling lonesome is not to go off and do one's own thing; it is to work harder to stay in touch with the friends you've already got.

Also, I do not think the current Stateside membership can support a full slate of Provincial Magistrates. The instinct here is to elect or appoint the most active members, on the assumption that activity alone is a good gauge of leadership ability. It may not be; I know it isn't in my case. Yes, I write. A lot, even. But my organizational skills, while good enough for essays, do not extend to human beings and the activities they get into. And a Magistrate who is selected based on the strength of his essays is not going to have time to write any if he also has to compose speeches for the Senate.

Actually I never really paid attention to Provincial structure in the SVR. For me, SVR is made up of its Collegia. Why do we need Provinces? Provincia Belgica makes sense, because no one in it is further than a day's train ride from any other member's house. Provincia Vespera, OTOH, would be another kettle of fish entirely. I believe the outlines of all of Western Europe fit at least two or three times within the outline of the United States. The distances between us are correspondingly vast, and require an aircraft to cover them if the trip is not to take several days. Arranging a meeting under these conditions is not something I'd even want to attempt. The coordination of modes of travel, lodging, members' finances, days off from work/school, family situations, et cetera would be way too much to worry about for way too small a result.

Na, I think the original plan for the U.S. makes better sense: When and IF we do create an American Provincia, let it not be until we have enough people together in each region to make several of them. Have we reached critical mass in Ohio? in Texas? somewhere else? --Then form a Midwest Province, a Southwest Province, a Northeast Province (with prettier names, of course), and worry about where the center of gravity is in each smaller area, not continent-wide.

Having all the Ami sodales meet once a year in Nebraska...almost impossible. Getting all the Romano-Texans out to Austin a couple times a year...that is still difficult (I tried it for the OP in Fort Worth), but it more closely approaches 'doable'.

So...do we have a particularly-great concentration of Romani in any specific region of the North American continent? --Perhaps, if so, we should be talking about making a Province there.
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:39 pm

Salvete!

Just a remark off the record before I start my reply; if I understand it correctly, "Vespera" is a synonym for "Hesperia", right? That would be funny because "Hesperia" is a name that has been used for Europe as well (eveningland or Abendland).

Now, as to Marius' remarks.

Marius wrote:I am not enthusiastic about forming an official U.S. Province at this time. It seems to me that having our own Page, our own Chat, our own everything-else would only serve to enhance the sense of separation already felt by some American sodales at the difficulty of getting together with our European other-selves. The solution to feeling lonesome is not to go off and do one's own thing; it is to work harder to stay in touch with the friends you've already got.

Also, I do not think the current Stateside membership can support a full slate of Provincial Magistrates. The instinct here is to elect or appoint the most active members, on the assumption that activity alone is a good gauge of leadership ability. It may not be; I know it isn't in my case. Yes, I write. A lot, even. But my organizational skills, while good enough for essays, do not extend to human beings and the activities they get into. And a Magistrate who is selected based on the strength of his essays is not going to have time to write any if he also has to compose speeches for the Senate.


I think you're seeing things too big here. The Belgae don't have their own webpage or chat and only one 'magistrate' - who has no senate membership (Mencius is currently praefectus I believe). So these arguments you sum up lose their power once you compare them to the real situation in Belgica. However, your argument that active members may not necessarily be good leaders is indeed a valid one.

I don't understand what you mean about Americans coming together would mean a seperation from us.


Marius wrote:Actually I never really paid attention to Provincial structure in the SVR. For me, SVR is made up of its Collegia. Why do we need Provinces? Provincia Belgica makes sense, because no one in it is further than a day's train ride from any other member's house. Provincia Vespera, OTOH, would be another kettle of fish entirely. I believe the outlines of all of Western Europe fit at least two or three times within the outline of the United States. The distances between us are correspondingly vast, and require an aircraft to cover them if the trip is not to take several days. Arranging a meeting under these conditions is not something I'd even want to attempt. The coordination of modes of travel, lodging, members' finances, days off from work/school, family situations, et cetera would be way too much to worry about for way too small a result.

Na, I think the original plan for the U.S. makes better sense: When and IF we do create an American Provincia, let it not be until we have enough people together in each region to make several of them. Have we reached critical mass in Ohio? in Texas? somewhere else? --Then form a Midwest Province, a Southwest Province, a Northeast Province (with prettier names, of course), and worry about where the center of gravity is in each smaller area, not continent-wide.


Fully agreed. Now on to the last point...

Marius wrote:Having all the Ami sodales meet once a year in Nebraska...almost impossible. Getting all the Romano-Texans out to Austin a couple times a year...that is still difficult (I tried it for the OP in Fort Worth), but it more closely approaches 'doable'.

So...do we have a particularly-great concentration of Romani in any specific region of the North American continent? --Perhaps, if so, we should be talking about making a Province there.


There seem to be some amount of sodales around the East Coast and the Great Lakes, however, Piscinus said that even this area spans more than the distance between Denmark and Spain. Still, since it has been possible for Europeans to meet in the OP, from distances as far apart as Italy and Finland, it should theoretically be possible for the Eastcoasters, that is, if someone is willing to organise and if a decent number of people is interested to come. Otherwise the plans have to be put back into the fridge...

Valete bene,
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Last edited by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:40 pm

This is what our regula says about provinciae:

...

VII. Provinciae

Provinciae are local groups of members of the Societas organised into a smaller sub-group. Activities of provinciae include but are not limited to: gatherings, museum and/or exposition visits, creative projects and active promotion of the Societas within their area.

1. Prior to becoming an official provincia, an area must fulfill the following qualifications:

(a) To have at least five members in the area of the future provincia.

(b) To have a candidate for Praefectus, already agreed and voted upon by the members of the future provincia, excluding the future Praefectus himself in this vote. If there is only one candidate, the prospective members will still have the choice to vote against them. Elected Praefecti may be removed from office by a local majority vote of the voting members.

(c) If both qualifications are met, the Senatus shall vote on the recognition of said provincia. Provinciae may also be derecognised by the Senatus if the area has been inactive for over a year.

2. The Praefectus, elected in December each year, shall have the following powers, honours and obligations:

(a) To officially represent his provincia for the Societas Via Romana;

(b) To organise activities within his area and encourage members to become active;

(c) To appoint and dismiss Scribae Praefecti as he sees fit;

(d) To not act counter the spirit and/or letter of the Regula

...

It is not hard to form a provincia, and praefecti don't have any legislative duties. The title, it is all about :wink: !
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:43 pm

Good Lord mi Locate, did we vote on a praefectus this year, or will Mencius remain in his seat of absolute power? ;)

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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:45 pm

I opened a topic, and I guess he will not stay in his seat :wink:. Just look at him on my avatar! Hardly a man of honour, isn't it? :lol:
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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:32 pm

Not a valid point, my friend...

'Ts pic (avatar) was taken after you drenched me with alcohol. And that'absolute' power of mine.... Tss, you know better than that, my friend.

I have indeed seen the other topic regarding a praefectus, so just wait and see. :twisted:
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Provinciae in America

Postby C.AeliusEricius on Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:22 am

Salvete.

I should start off by stating my opinion that I do not see any reason to have provinces west of the Atlantic Ocean. (And I still had to hedge the wording in that paragraph.)

It is not only people unfamiliar with the scale of American regions, some natives to these countries (at least the USA) also do not grasp how long it takes to travel in some regions. When Joe Bloch was drawing the maps for his game, he kept things too big, except in the area that he lived in. He was an Easterner, and it is a common misconception that Easterners have about places west of the Mississippi, or even the Appalachians. Piscinus lives in Northeast Ohio. When he goes to Chicago, "only" one state over in NE Illinois it takes him a day to get there. I mention these things to illustrate the distances involved.

I think that if Americans really want the title of province, and the titles that go with it, then their provinces should be very small chunks of geography. That those five people should be no farther apart than they are willing to travel to have dinner together. Though this brings me back to not understanding a need for provinciae. People with like interests will get together when they can, as they are inclined and able to.

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Dec 29, 2003 12:59 pm

Salve Erici!

That avatar had completely slipped my mind; my apologies. Yes, please resend it to my hotmail-address if you want to.

Gratias tibi ago,
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:40 pm

Salvete mi amici et amicae

I think our first provincia will form in the Americas when a group of friends, all from one city, forms a kind of colonia in Montreal, Philadelphia, or Rio perhaps. Even a statewide group could be difficult so I think it will more likely come in a metropolitan area. Marius has best expressed such a cell. I think it will have to be able to meet in the real world, not just online, and meet regularly, preferably monthly. It should center around some activity, whether meeting for dinner, visiting a museum or forming a book club. It might meet at members homes, although I think it would do best to have some other, public facility to meet, whether a library, museum or park. But the idea we have is that a circle of friends begin meeting first and then form a provincia, rather than form an artificial and meaningless provincia.

If there are four others close enough to meet with me in Akron or Cleveland, Ohio, then I will be happy to begin forming a circle that can develop into a provincia. If any other group would form elsewhere in the States, I would be happy to visit and assist as I may. My ability to travel is somewhat limited, but I always enjoy travel.

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OT: Non-Divine Retribution

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:28 am

** Marius the Legionary grabs Draco by the front of his toga, lifts him off the ground about a foot and a half (not quite half a meter), and gently but firmly places him against the nearest wall. **

** Marius expresses his displeasure at having had his post edited, even accidentally. **

** Said expression at first takes the form of a 'gentle' reproof, but as Draco continues to dangle his choking sounds begin to annoy Marius. **

** Marius lets Draco back down, only so he can smack him around a little bit. **

** Marius explains that, with the condition his hands are in, the composition of that post was well over an hour's work, consuming his entire Library computer session. **

** Marius cuffs Draco one last time (Gently!) and leaves him profoundly grateful for two things, and highly-resolved on a third. The gratiae: That Marius' hands are so weak, else his amicus'd never have survived the beating; and that the veteran had not found it necessary to address him in Wolf mode. **

** The High Resolution: That such an accident shall never, never, ever happen again, by his hands or anyone else's, so help him Roma. **


In amicitia (and a few other, less-refined states of mind), >({|;-p
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OTOH...

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:31 am

(OTOH, I am loving the amount and quality of feedback on this thread!!)

In amicitia s'more,
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Re: OT: Non-Divine Retribution

Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:52 am

Marius Peregrinus wrote:** Marius expresses his displeasure at having had his post edited, even accidentally. **


"Quote" and "edit" are only one button away from one another. All you lost were your greetings and your signature...

*dusts himself off*

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Re: OT: Non-Divine Retribution

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:23 am

Quoth mi Draco (who is still one of my Bestest Buds in all of SVR):
> "Quote" and "edit" are only one button away from one another.

Ahh, I figured it was somethin' very like that. Quite understandable, and as you say, the damage was minimal. So while my story-reaction may have been...okay, mild for me, but still a bit much..., IRL I just made sure the meat of the article was still there, de-compressed with that little bout of roleplay, and quite thoroughly accepted your regrets. If we get through the next five years without me doing something similar to you, why, we should go in together on a temple to Concordia, with a little shrine on the side for Errata (or maybe Deletus). I'll provide the patch of land, desert though it be...

> *dusts himself off*

** helps him **

In amicitia (even if I am less Wolf than Bear betimes), >({(:-)
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:04 pm

YARR! ;)

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