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Septimius Severus

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:50 pm
by Quintus Marius Primus
There's currently an argument on the BBC History message boards about whether Emporor Septimus Severus was black or not. Anyone got any thoughts, and does anyone know of any contemporary sources that may shed some light on this?

Gratias ago

Re: Septimus Severus

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:38 pm
by Quintus Pomponius Atticus
Quintus Marius Primus wrote:There's currently an argument on the BBC History message boards about whether Emporor Septimus Severus was black or not. Anyone got any thoughts, and does anyone know of any contemporary sources that may shed some light on this?

Gratias ago


Could you post a link to the board in question ?

Vale,

Atticus

Septimius Severus

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:44 am
by Aldus Marius
Avete,

As Roma had no Citizens south of the Sahara (save the occasional beast-catcher), it is more likely--though not certain--that Emperor Severus was of North African descent. These people resembled, but were not, Phoenicians or Arabs more than anything.

OTOH, we *were* doing a brisk business with Ethiopia...

*shrugs*


Re: Septimius Severus

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:48 am
by Quintus Pomponius Atticus
Marius Peregrine wrote:Avete,

As Roma had no Citizens south of the Sahara (save the occasional beast-catcher), it is more likely--though not certain--that Emperor Severus was of North African descent. These people resembled, but were not, Phoenicians or Arabs more than anything.

OTOH, we *were* doing a brisk business with Ethiopia...

*shrugs*



Then there's the 'argumentum ex silentio'. As far as I know, there's nothing in the sources - Dio Cassius, Historia Augusta (I couldn't access Herodian to check) - that clearly indicates that Severus was black. I strongly suspect a first black emperor to be something historiographers would've mentioned.

Valete,

Atticus

Firsts

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:59 am
by Aldus Marius
Avete iterum...

> I strongly suspect a first black emperor to be something historiographers would've
> mentioned.

Not necessarily, mi Attice; we were never particularly race-conscious in the modern sense. Ethnicity and class, yes (very much so)...but pelage doesn't seem to have determined much, if anything, except maybe on the interpersonal level.

In fide,

Re: Firsts

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:35 am
by Q Valerius
Marius Peregrine wrote:Not necessarily, mi Attice; we were never particularly race-conscious in the modern sense. Ethnicity and class, yes (very much so)...but pelage doesn't seem to have determined much, if anything, except maybe on the interpersonal level.

I disagree. When Caesar described the Gauls, he described their racial characteristics - light skin, blue eyes, and blonde hair. A man who seriously departed from the Mediterranean/Near East normal appearance surely would have at least been noted for it. It is true that they weren't as denigrating as we are in modernity, but they weren't absolutely "color-blind".

Pelage

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:14 am
by Aldus Marius
Salve, mi Scerio...

Yes, the Gauls were certainly considered remarkable in the 50s BC. Would a black man have been considered so in the 220s AD...? Hard to say. A whole lot can change in that amount of time. It could be that, in those 270 years, the definition of 'Mediterranean/Near-East Normal' had expanded quite a bit to include people like Severus, whatever his complexion. Or it could be we haven't recovered that source yet.

Historians note the noteworthy, the same way only non-ordinary stuff gets into the news. If it was a common thing, if it was accepted, no one would have thought to remark upon it. This, of course, is a source of great frustration to us nowadays, as there are any number of little details of, for example, military organization or daily life that we would love to learn; but that have not been passed down to us because, at the time the historians were writing, they were some of those things that "everybody knew"!

In fide,

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:55 am
by Quintus Pomponius Atticus
Btw, Prime, could you please correct the title of this topic (or if you can't change it anymore, could our aediles ?) ? It should be SeptimIUS Severus (it is a mistake often made, don't worry :wink:).

Vale optime !

Atticus

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:40 pm
by Quintus Marius Primus
Btw, Prime, could you please correct the title of this topic (or if you can't change it anymore, could our aediles ?) ? It should be SeptimIUS Severus (it is a mistake often made, don't worry ).


Apologies, but I am unable!

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:05 am
by Tiberius Dionysius Draco
Quintus Pomponius Atticus wrote:Btw, Prime, could you please correct the title of this topic (or if you can't change it anymore, could our aediles ?) ? It should be SeptimIUS Severus (it is a mistake often made, don't worry :wink:).


Fixed.

Vale,

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:12 pm
by Publius Dionysius Mus
Salvete!

"The first black Roman emperor", it could be the title of a new 'book' by Von Däniken...

Some points that we should take in consideration when discussing this matter:

* The original inhabitants (Berbers) of the North African coasts were 'civilized' by Phoenicians from the cities of Tyre and Sidon (Canaanite traders). Around 1000 BC-500 BC even more refugees from these cities came to North Africa, after Assyria had crushed their mother cities. The population of Tripolitania were to become known as Libyphoenicians due to a lot of intermarriage. And to get the current image we have of the population of North Africa one has to add Romans, Vandals, Arabs, French and Italians to that mix.

* When we look at the portraits of Septimius Severus, wo do not see any resemblance to the African race. He was indeed North-African from origin, but the colour of their skin and the way they look is not very different from other people in the Mediterranian (Greeks, Spanish, ...).

I hope I could make myself clear here, I have some difficulties expressing myself on this matter correctly in English...

If someone wants to know more about the man, I can look up alot of things in the works I have about him (I needed those to write my term paper...):
A.R. BIRLEY: Septimius Severus, the African Emperor
A. DAGUET-GAGEY: Septime Sévère
A.M. MCCANN: The portraits of Septimius Severus


Valete bene

Septimius Severus

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:07 am
by Valerius Claudius Iohanes
And also, geography is not necessarily race, viz white (not black) South Africans, or white (not red) North Americans. I forget the immediate circumstances of Severus's birth (if known) but at that time weren't Romans still presiding over North Africa?