REPOST: Atlantis, fact or fiction?

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salvete Romani,



Where was Atlantis? And did it really exist? These are two classic questions, related to antiquity, that still remain unanswered today, and have occupied entire lives of both scientists and madman, often unified within the same person. That doesn't take away that it remains an intriguing concept.

The name Atlantis is mentioned in Plato's work. He used the story of Atlanis as a metaphor for his own ideal state, much like he used Sokrates to spread his own ideas, but, as in the case of Sokrates, many have wondered if Atlantis might not have really existed. As for "facts" unrelated to Plato's own fantasy, he described Atlantis as a nation with an advanced level of technology, agriculture and warfare. According to him, it sank in the ocean due to a natural calamity, 9600 BC. It was said to have a large fleet, and being at war with Athens over land.

Ever since, people have been searching for the location of this isle, continent or chain of islands. The Atlantic Ridge has been suggested, or places as far as the Caraibean Sea, or Antarctica. The theory with the most scientifical value, however, is usually considered to be the one that claims Atlantis was a codename for the Minoan civilization, because of the following reasons:

(1) The Cycladic isles and Kreta had a culture which was, compared to the archaic mainland culture, in many ways advanced for a long time, until their culture suddenly collapsed.

(2) Minoan civilization was wiped out due to a volcanic explosion on the island of Thera (Santorini), and probably caused a huge tidal wave. Whether or not it did sink islands remains a riddle, but it would not be unplausible.

(3) Some say that Plato's system for dating events should be divided by ten, which gives us 960 BC instead of the incredibly old 9600 BC. The Minoan period ended in ca. 1400 BC.

(4) If there used to be a landbrigde, which was destroyed by the volcanic explosion, it is possible that the Minoans and the Athenians would have fared war overland.

(5) Kreta had, just like Atlantis, a huge and impressive fleet.

This is a theory that one of our former teachers of classic Greek has as a pet theory. However, despite its interesting value, and its lower degree of nuttiness compared to the others, it provides me with questions that seem a reason large enough to dismiss the theory. Here are my reasons:

(1) When would the Athenians and Minoans have fared a war overland? Anytime before 900 BC, Athens was nothing more than a village. The Minoans would have crushed them in no time.

(2) 1400 BC dates further back in the past than 960 (if that is what Plato really meant), and everyone knows that the ancients liked to date their history farther back than it actually happened. So why would Plato place such an important event 500 years too early?

(3) Plato claims his sources are Egyptian, and that Atlantis was their motherland, because Egypt would mean 'second soul of (the) god'. It is clear that Egyptian civilization dates way back, and is older than the Minoan culture.

(4) How agricultural can a group of scattered islands be?

(5) If Atlantis ever was one land, composed of the Cyclades and Kreta, I wonder what caused a tidal wave, if the volcano stood on land.



Feel free to comment & discuss!

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salve Scorpio

I don't know if you have heard of this but the the vulcanic eruption that took place on Thera was so devastating that one side collapsed in the sea causing a tidal wave big enough to destroy anything in its path and could have reached Knossos. Most towns were destroyed as did the harbours. With the destruction of their ports, they were cut of from the rest of the world. They tried to rebuild but 50 years after the eruption on Thera, the Myceneans attacked and conquered Crete. What i just said is what i heard on a program called ' a vulcano that blew a world away' on National Geographic Channel. They say that the vulcano was one part of the reason why the Minoans didn't rebuild and that the final blow that caused the demise of their civilisation was the invasion of the Myceneans. To be honest i don't think that Atlantis was located in those island group. If you look back the Black Sea was once inhabited by people. They actually found evidence. When the water level was rising, i guess many people saw what was about to take place and tryed to escape from it. When the sea did break through, the whole area was covered with water. Those who has survived fled to other places like the middle east, greece, etc.. My guess is that this was our Atlantis. A society that was so advanced than any other that it sank in the ocean. The evidence they found were homes at the bottom of the black sea. These survivors took what was left of their culture and society and brought it somewhere else.
Another possibility is what you said Scorpio: Egypte. Evidence has shown that the sphinx is older than first estimated. I believe it was build around 10.000 bc or 10.000 years old. There was a 2-weekly magazine called x-factor that said something about it. That there was an advanced culture in those times in Egypte, but was located at the end of the last ice age where the ice started the melt again which in turn caused the sea level to rise which would retraite after a while to its normal coastlines. So the rising sea level would be able to 'sink' an entire civilisation. But the rising of the sea level might be sufficient to sink entire islands.
But than again Plato saying that Atlantis was at war with Athens was probably fictional and was more used to put it in their present.
This is what i think of it.
vale optime
Sokarus Aurelius Orcus

[Marcus Pomponius Lupus]

Salve Scorpio,

Scripsisti

5) If Atlantis ever was one land, composed of the Cyclades and Kreta, I wonder what caused a tidal wave, if the volcano stood on land.

From what I've seen on a documentary, this is very well possible. What happens is that when the volcano erupts with too much power, the lava isn't just pushed out at the top, but the entire mountain is simply blown away.

So imagine a volcano standing on an island...when it erupts, it happens with so much power that the entire mountain explodes and creates a huge hole in the land. The sea of course starts to fill in this hole, but it's like pouring water in a glass from too high and too fast, what happens now is that the water jumps out again with incredible force and this creates a tidal wave.

I've also seen the socmentary Sokarus referred to about the fall of the Minoan empire and this is in fact a pretty solid theory, the tidal wave, created by the explosion of Santorini/Thera would have destroyed their fleet, the center of their power and the ash would have destroyed their crops. For years on end, life would be close to impossible on the island and when things were finally clearing up, the Minoans came to destroy most of their palaces.....tough luck

Vale bene
Lupus

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salvete Lupe et Sokare,

Well yes Sokare, I have more than "heard" of Thera. I have actually been there .

I'm not sure if I buy the Black Sea theory. Quickly "evidence" is used where there may be deceit in play, or just hypotheses. The Black Sea has always been there, although hasn't always been connected with the Mediterranean Sea. And it's true that in the area some prehistoric peoples lived there... But cities? I'm waiting for convincing arguments.

Mi Lupe, the problem I have with the Santorini theory is not the fact as such (volcano collapsing and blowing half of the island away) but the fact that it should have been capable to destroying the Cycladic Islands which, at that time, allegedly would have been one strip of land (size of Kreta, perhaps). The greatest problem I have is the date. Plato's writings seem to indicate, depending on who you believe, two possible dates: 960BC and 9600BC. None of them comes close to 1500BC...

Valete bene!
Scorpio

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salve Scorpio
I don't know. You could be correct but i think that we don't have the take the dates litteraly. 960 Bc is an unlikely candidates except for 9600 BC. But it is impossible for Athens to develop at such a rate that it would have been able to posses a naval fleet at 960 BC. 9600 Bc isn't correct either because well Athens didn't really exist back than and was just a handful of people living there, probably nomads or farmers. So this isn't a real candidate. Like i said, we can't take everything to serious. Such a civilisation seem to have shown its face to several people all over the world. When it comes to Atlantis, we have to remain sceptical and distance ourselfs from what we know so that we have a good look at it.
vale optime

[Tiberius Dionysius Draco]

Salve,

personally, I think that it was indeed Plato's image of a perfect state because there is no mentioning of Atlantis by any other source.

Last year (I think it was in August) I saw a documantary about an island (I forgot it's name, sorry) near Greece, that could have been related to Atlantis because they found trace of volcanic eruptions and tidal waves. The proof of this could be found in the fact of certain rock structures (you could clearly see the different layers) and the fact that fossile shells could be found in the higher mountain areas. They could only have gotten there transported by a tidal wave (maybe we can call it "the" tidal wave). Also, the island was shaped in a circular form and in the middle there was some kind of a lake. They suspect that underneath al that water, the old crater of the volcano lies wich caused the initial eruption. Now the only land left, is the top of the volcano. This might all seem a bit vague to some of you, but there definetely must have been a civilisation destroyed by a tidal wave because almost every culture has legends about cities "swallowed" by the sea or the earth.

So maybe there is some truth in Plato's words, but I don't think everything can be taken seriously.

Valete bene,

Hannibal Dionysius Scorpio

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salve frater,

Yes, you are referring to Thèra. Most definitely happened. But I'm absolutely not sure it was Atlantis. But yes, perhaps it sprang from Plato's mind only, although flood stories are not uncommon in ancient cultures...

Scorpio

[Anonymous]

But poetry contains things that science has not advanced to yet!

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

... Likewise, those who assign this event to the downfall of Minoan civilization cite the presence of a tsunami wave from the volcanic collapse at Thera. Often it is the case that costal or insular volcanoes will trigger tsunami or “tidal” waves and these certainly can be destructive. In the case of Thera however, there may have been little or no associated wave. Geological analysis suggests that the collapse of Thera was not instantaneous but rather a gradual subsidence. If this were the case, it would mean there was no tsunami wave or at least a wave capable of consuming an entire civilization. Whatever the case may be with the eruption of Thera, while disruptive was not the force that ended Minoan civilization. ... Coruncanius

Our teacher of ancient Greek in 3rd grade (of secondary school that is, of course) contended that evidence had been found in Israel of a flood reaching a height of nine meters (about 30' I guess) which coincided with the eruption of the Thèra volcano.

Optime vale!
Draco

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

... All of this changes abruptly in the Late Minoan period phase II – roughly the half century of 1,450-1,400 BC. A wave of destruction spread over Crete in this period. Fires destroyed many of the settlements on Crete in this time period including Phaistos, Mallia, Ayia Triadha and Kato Zakro. Middle and Late Minoan style artifacts become rare – clearly something radical happens on Crete in this era. Before this transition, Minoan culture had its own distinct characteristics. Art, architecture, religion and burial practices developed independently from the rest of the Aegean basin here. The natives of island possessed their own language and writing different from that of Mainland Greece and the Cycladic cultures. Linear A, still unreadable, was the written form of a language used on Crete. After 1,400 BC the culture in Late Minoan phase III resembles mainland Greek culture to a degree unparalleled before. Palaces were rebuilt at several sites but in altered forms, Knossos underwent some sort of transition in the Late Minoan III period (ca. 1,380) and then fell victim to fire. Art and material culture begin to show mainland characteristics in styles, shapes and themes. Also, burial customs begin to follow those of the Mycenaean culture on the mainland. Perhaps most telling is the fact that Linear B replaces Linear A on Crete in this period. Linear B is an early form of the Greek language. Clearly, the Greeks from the mainland arrived on Crete in the years surrounding 1,450 and the culture of the island resembles that of Mycenaean Greece down through the end of the Bronze Age (Late Minoan IIIA-IIIC roughly 1,400-1,150 BC).

I was suddenly reminded of a book I once read, I believe co-authored by Isaac Asimov, about a humanoid culture on a distant planet in a system with six stars. Once every two or fourthousand years (can't clearly remember) there is none of these six in the sky and it becomes night. People then go mad and burn down their own cities to create light, afraid as they are of the darkness and unknown with the other stars.

Back on topic: it may be naieve to suppose this, but what if geological calculations are wrong and the Thèra volcano exploded around 1400BC and not 1500BC? Or erupted twice?

... Although there is obvious appeal in trying to connect the myth of Atlantis to both Minoan civilization and the Thera volcano, archaeological investigation conclusively shows that the eruption did not destroy the Minoans on Crete. Thus, arguments claiming it did are not paying heed to the established timelines on Minoan Crete and Cycladic Thera/Santorini.

Plato may have been mistaken (that is, if he equalled Atlantis to the Minoans) in his own chronology. After all, there was no precise record keeping back then.

Are there any Egyptian sources on these events, by the way?

Vale optime!
Draco

[Quintus Aurelius Orcus]

Salvete
I believe i heard somewhere that the eruption of Thera can be linked to a biblical event like the exodus or something like that. I have forgotten most of it. But the eruption should have been seen from Egypt.
It could very be that the vulcano erupted twice but than again the eruption and the tidal waves were powerfull enough to possible weaken the Minoans. I think, and maybe it has already said here, that the invading Myceneans gave to final blow to the decline of the Minoan civilisation.
Offtopic here but if anyone has seen the second season of Dark Angel? If you looked at it, than you should know that the show had a 5000 year old breeding cult the Covenant (i believe it is called) who had a selective breeding program to alter the genes or something like without any scienitific help. I think they "worship" the Cretan Snake Goddess and speak the ancient Minoan language. Ofcourse they were the bad guys while most transgenics on the show were the good guys. I believed it got canceled so there wouldn't be any third season.
valete optime

[Anonymous]

Salvete

Apparently, Plato heard the legend of Atlantis from the greeks, which received it from the egyptians, perhaps. The first version of this legend put Atlantis in the eastern Mediterranean; a possible error of traduction led Plato to believe that Atlantis was an enormous country (multiplying this size, armada etc by ten), and put his location beyond Gibraltar, in the Atlantis Sea (now, Atlantic Ocean).
According to a book i have (Rezanov, Grandes Catastrofes da Terra-Great Catastrophes of Earth, Moscou, editora MIR, 1987), is impossible from that great country to be destroyed, even more without trace, even after all these millenia.
Apparently, we are left with the theory of a small Atlantis, and the best candidate is the little island of Thera/Santorin, in the Egean Sea, 120 km north of Creta. Thera has a remarkable form (resemblesis an arch), and it is known that this island suffered a enormous volcanic catastrophe, when its centre was pulverized, at 1.400 BC. This explosion is believed to have been at least 4 times stronger that Kracatoa (perhaps 10 times stronger), since the area of the "hole" left in Kracatoa is 4 times lesser than the "hole" left in Thera (that is, 83 km2). Such an eruption could have been devastated Creta and the Cyclades Islands, first with dark clouds and strong winds, then with floodings and rain of stones and ash. The Minoan Palace was covered with 30 meters of volcanic ask. Probably the Cyclades Islands and the center and east parts of Crete were covered with this ash, and remained desert for perhaps a decade.
The archeological excavations revealed that the port and half of the city of Ugari (Ras Shamra), in distant Syria, were destroyed in the same epoch, by strong sea waves. The winds carried the ash mainly to the south-east, destroying more the Cyclades Islands and Crete, and so the greek mainland didnt suffered very much.


Vale
Marcus Arminius

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salve Corunciane,

Could you edit and combine some of your very insightful postings here and allow us to post it on the site? You can contact me off-forum if you want to (scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com).

Vale bene!
Draco

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salvete

Not to bring up an old subject, but this just in, Atlantis found in southern Spain...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3766863.stm

[Marcus Pomponius Lupus]

Salve Piscine,

Interesting link, southern Spain, that would match earlier theories claiming that it was near the rocks of Gibraltar.

Just one quote out of the article, especially for Atticus :

Dr Kuehne noticed that the war between Atlantis and the eastern Mediterranean described in Plato's writings closely resembled attacks on Egypt, Cyprus and the Levant during the 12th Century BC by mysterious raiders known as the Sea People.

As a result, he proposes that the Atlanteans and the Sea People were in fact one and the same.

Well, Attice, we could have know that the Hyksos were going to be held responsible for this one as well

Valete bene
Lupus

[Anonymous]

Im inclined to think that Atlantis is a legend based in fact, that, with time, became "out of control", more or less like those "circles of plantations" in Britain.

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Salvete;

Actually I think it would be strange for any Greek people (if the Atlanteans were Greek) to have concentric city building? Or is these an example of an ancient Greek city which had a similar structure?

Also, let's not forget that Plato is the only source regarding the fabled Atlantis. Writers predating him don't appear to mention it, although flooding myths are pretty universal.

By the way, Maior!!! Long time no see!

Valete,
Draco