Roman States of America?

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Roman States of America?

Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:16 pm

Salvete,

By some people of today, the modern USA has been compared to the ancient Roman Empire. I would like to know if others here have thoughts on this, especially our American members. I have a few ideas and remarks myself but I'm going to postpone posting (what an alliteration) my opinion until I'v heard yours ;).

So tell me what you think!

Valete,
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:02 pm

Salvete,

Quite surprising and disappointing, no one has answered this question. Perhaps a topic too boring, too obvious for our American friends to go into at great length and detail? Or doesn't anyone have an opinion here? I can hardly imagine it ;).

Anyway. Here's mine then. I hope it will get some minds working and some keyboards typing ;).

The US has been compared with the Roman Empire for reasons which are at first sight obvious. Both are centralised "empires", shall we say, with a dominant influence over the world. The main language of both is a world language. Additionally, just like the Roman Empire the US is on an economical and military level a super power as well. The fact that they have also grown over the centuries would be another interesting element for comparison. Proponents of the US and their foreign politics propagate a "Pax Americana" in which the US uses its power according for its own benefits and to keep things in relative stability. Opponents of the US point out the Romans' aggressiveness and imperialism as a factor which is also present in the US. With regards to politics, one might even say that the two dominant factions in republican Rome live on in the two major parties in the US.

I personally don't think this is a very suitable comparison. I think on basis of the above, the US could be compared to any empire, or any western emprire (the 19th century French, the 16th century Spanish, the 18th century British) could be compared to the Roman Empire. Because in a way, each great empire in the west that came after the Romans consciously imitated facets of it, so this would not be a unique American trait. Secondly, there is a difference in which the US acquired its territories and the way in which Rome did. Rome did not start out as a colony that gained independence from the motherland (unless you accept the theory that the Etruscans founded Rome) and then expanded westwards by buying land and fighting wars with native people who were rather outnumbered. The Romans fought wars against densely populated regions as well as regions with a low population.

I think a comparison between the US and the Attic-Delian Naval Bound would be much more suitable. I'll explain why in another posting... Feel free to comment on this one already! Especially our American friends!!

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Postby Lucius Tyrrhenus Garrulus on Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:48 am

Lucius Etruscus salutem dicit, s.v.b.e.v.

Hope its not too late to respond, but if we look at Livy, who wrote that his readers would not be as interested in reading the ancient history of Rome so much as "one in which the might of an imperial people is begining to work its own ruin," we find the only real difference between the Roman Empire and the American Empire is that the ancient Romans (at the time of Livy) knew their society was collapsing.
Of the few Americans who recognize this, most are unwilling to admit this dreadful fact.
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:01 pm

Salvete Luci et omnes

Comparisons of ancient Rome with what would become the Unites States began before the American Revolution. In fact much of the propaganda leading up to the Revolution depicted the patriot cause in a Roman historicism ( derived from Whiggism).

Predictions of the fall of American society began amongst the Founding Fathers, that is those who wrote the Constitution, distinct from the ealier Old Revolutionaries, who considered the Revolution were unleashing demogoguic forces. The wrote the Constitution for the very reason that they foresaw what they believed would be the collapse of their society. It is interesting to read Hamilton's comments in support of the Constitution with thoughts of the current Bush administration kept in mind. The Federalist No. 7, 2 Nov 1787: "It is impossible to read the history of the petty Republics of Greece and Italy without feeling sensations of horror and disgust at the distractions with which they were continually agitated, and at the rapid succession of revolutions by which they were kept in a state of perpetual vinration between the extremes of tyranny and anarchy...From the disorders that disfigure the annals of those republics, the advocates of despotism have drawn arguments, not only against the forms of republican government, but against the very principles of civil liberty."

This argument has gone on for a very long time. Gov of New York, George Clinton, wrote under the pseudonym of Cato in opposition to the Constitution as an instrument of oppresion, while Hamilton wrote in support under the name Publius, and under such other pseudonyms on other issues as Tully (Cicero) and Lucius Crassus. The earliest Americans identified themselves as the inheritors of Republican Rome and its liberty and have ever after discussed the potentil loss of their freedom by comparing themselves to Rome. I have heard this string often. Supporters of Bush will talk of the 1960's as one of those periods of anarchy that Hamilton predicted, while Bush' administration compares to one of the darkest eras of despotism under Adams with the passage of the American Patriiot Act being similar in content and justification to the Alien and Sedition Acts. To any of you who think or hope that the US is soon to fall or its about society collapse, recall that we are the oldest Republic in existence today, the military and economic power of the US is unchallengeable, and our institutions are today at their strongest. If the US is at its peak today, then it is going to be a very long decline. For the next thousand years we will continue to hear how so much the US is like Rome and about to collapse.

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:03 pm

Salvete Piscine et Draco
Piscine, i'm not going to pretend that i know alot of American politics, which i do not. I barely monitor the politics in my country until several years ago. Before that, i couldn't care less. Anyway, if men like Bush and his administration is allowed to govern for another 4 years, the decline of American society will increase. You have to admit, they screwed up big time at the white house, so these guys can not rule for another 4 years because to me the Bush administration seem to be filled with cowboys wannabe's. Every country in the world besides them can't have a nuclear program. This is to me a controdiction beside the fact that they show a cowboy mentality. I think Draco is right when he compared the US with the Attic- Dellian league, but to me America shows more similarities with Athens and Rome.
One last point: it might be me being a somewhat pessimist, but if goverments like the Bush administration are allowed to rule in the future, than it would be only a matter of decades before our world tumbles into chaos because of the agressive foreign policy that America has adopted. It is obvious that the Bush administration is on the pay role of the major corporations. Why else attack a country that is weakened by U.N. sanctions that lasted over a decade?
Enough ranting for now.
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Postby Lucius Tyrrhenus Garrulus on Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:21 am

Salvete omnes, s.v.b.e.v.

At times, I think Jr. is punishing us for not reelecting Sr.
Sometimes, I think its because of their skull & bones membership.
Other times, I think he's just doing Israel's dirty work.
Most of the time, I'm just afraid for the rest of the world.
Watch out.
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:20 pm

Salve Luci,

Some times I'm afraid too. The US have violated many countries' independence, and they threaten to do it over and over again. The question "Who's next?" is on everybody's lips.

But a comparison with Rome? I don't know, I think every nation that wants to be/create a world empire can be compared with Rome, but only at a certain level. The obvious level, I would say. But the thriving powers? I'm not sure. IT is dangerous to make such comparisons.

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Postby Curio Agelastus on Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:32 pm

Salvete omnes,

Hmm.... I think there are more comparisons that can be drawn between the Roman Res Publica and the United States than between Roma and most great powers. The government, for one, although the Republic has evolved a great deal since it was first created by the Romans.

However, to say the U.S. is in decline is another topic entirely, and, for the moment, I must disagree. I think the current administration is in decline, but I had a fairly low opinion of Mr Bush at the beginning of his tenure in office anyway.

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:24 pm

Salvete,

As seductive as it is with this topic, I'd like to ask that we don't drift off-topic too far. Opinions with regards to the US can be freely discussed in the general forum :).

Valete,
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Postby Anonymous on Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:56 pm

What are the reasons for comparing the USA (or its Government) to the Ancient Roman Empire and what are the similarities? Is it the Imperialism? Because frankly I do not know.
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