Asatru

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Asatru

Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:18 am

Salvete

This site: http://www.webcom.com/%7Elstead/welcome.html
is a website where people interested in Norse paganism also known as Asatru. It gives information about practice, rituals, the Gods and how to worship the Norse Gods in modern day. It also gives information how the Norse did it centuries ago. Its really interesting site to visit, especially if you are interested in Norse paganism. It has even a mailinglist.
Maybe worth of adding to the links section of our site. I know it has nothing much to do with Rome or Greece, but Norse paganism is related to Germanic paganism.
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Postby Q Valerius on Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:12 pm

Thanks for the link Orce, but I suspect it might be a little outdated...I mean, a 9/11 prayer in 2005?

Edited: as I suspected - their last update was 3/17/02. 8)
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:31 pm

Salve

well a better webpage is this one on the Cauldron: http://www.ecauldron.com/reconnorse.php
here are some more links regarding Asatru and Germanic paganism
http://www.irminsul.org/
http://www.ealdriht.org/
Frigga's web: http://www.friggasweb.org/

Asatru Organisations

Asatru Folk Assembly: http://www.runestone.org/flash/home.html
The Troth: http://www.thetroth.org/
Eagle's kindred of Utah: http://eagle.eagleut.com/
vale

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Postby Cleopatra Aelia on Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:17 pm

Avete Amici,

Quite interesting that someone here posts something about Asatru since I'm a follower of Asatru. Though I don't like that term that much because one could think I would worship only the Aesir but not the Vanir. But it is one word to describe the reconstruction of the old Norse/Germanic religion and easier than to explain the whole thing in a sentence.

I'm not organized in any organization though because some of them remind me too much of a Pagan church. I rather prefer it to celebrate the rituals with fellow Pagans and everybody could bring him-/herself into the ritual in some kind. I visit regularly a moot group here in Hamburg of the Eldaring which is the German branch of The Troth which Orcus had mentioned in his list of links. But luckily I don't have to be a member of the Eldaring to visit their moots and even to celebrate rituals with them.

I can imagine that some of you ask yourself now why this lady who's interested in Ancient Rome has chosen the Norse religion as hers. Well, I'll explain to those interested: My personal theory is that gods and goddesses ruled in certain areas therefore the deities of the region where I life (Hamburg, North Germany) were the Germanic ones. I have no clue if the people here (must have been the Saxons) called the Godfather Odin or Wotan/Wodan and if Thor was Donar to them, who cares, it's all more or less the same, just another name.

When I go to other places I feel the presence of other deities, like in Rome I felt the presence of the Roman gods when I stood at this excavation site of three temples from the Republican era and felt kind a peace though the city was buzzing around me. Esp. in Rome it made me angry with what power the (Catholic) Church turned old temples into churches, tried to get rid of Pagan symbols and that the bronze statue of Marcus Aurelius only survived because they had thought it was showing Constantine who became a Christian shortly before his death.

Here in Germany they too had built churches over ancient temples and sacred sites. But there still remain places out on the country site like cairns etc. Just for Ostara (the spring festival around the Vernal Equinox) I went with two good friends to a sacred well to draw water from it which is said to have healing powers.

I hope that nobody feels offended by my openess. I hope that all religions would respect each other one of these days. I'm always open to a religion discussion but among most Pagans it's not a problem but with stronge believing Christians it unfortunately is in most cases.
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:16 pm

Salve Cleopatra

I'm glad that you are here. I don't know that much of Asatru or Norse/ Germanic recon paganism, but I'm glad that you are here.
No one really questions why you are here because you worship the Norse/ Germanic Gods. The Germanic Gods were known to the Romans since one of the borders of the Roman empire was located at the Rhine if not mistaken, so they had no doubt contact with the Germanic people, culture and religion.
I know several Hellenic recon pagans although most of them prefer to use the term polytheist since most people tend to confuse paganism with Wicca and they don't want to be affaliated with it. Most of them seem to have a similar attitude towards Gods of other cultures like you. For instance, most of them think that the Romans Gods are aspects of the Hellenic deities and those who practice the Religio Romana probably think the other way around or not at all.
No one is probably offended by your openess. In today's world, there will be times when the political correct bullshit has no use. How can we have a serieus discussion if no one speaks what is on their minds? I'm actually looking forward to religious discussion with you. Its a good way to learn more about eachother than sticking ones head in books.
One of the things I initially wanted to do here when I was elected rector of this collegium was to bring other religious groups here like Celtic, Mesopotamian, Canaanite, Egyptian, Norse/ Germanic and possibly Slavic pagans here or at least try to draw them to this collegium so that we could have inter-religious discussions. Wicca is fine too. It is welcome, just as any other faith. I have no objection to Wiccans coming here. However Wiccans who worship Hellenic and/ or Roman deities should be warned that this forum is mostly about Hellenic and Roman culture, religion, etc... so that if they make a mistake, it will be brought to their attention. The fluffies among pagans (note all pagans, not just among Wiccans) are easily offended and scared so they will most likely the first to leave here. What I wanted to do is to bring more flavour to this collegium. Enough rambling for now.
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Strong-believing Christians

Postby Aldus Marius on Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:40 am

Avete amici...

Gaia Aelia, I share your observation on 'strong-believing Christians'--they can be trouble even to other 'strong-believing Christians'! I am a Christian of the Pelagian (Celtic) persuasion, and I find it much easier to talk about religious matters with quote-unquote 'pagans' than with my so-called fellow-believers.

I wrote several months ago about the particulars of my sect and how we came to be considered heretics. It's in General-->Where IS Everybody??, which was originally my 'Absentia' thread...but somebody made a statement, and I (being Marius) just ran off with it. We ended up talking about King Arthur. How's that for a digression? >({|;-)

Fundamentalists of all faiths are a butt-fungus wherever found. I thought nobody in the OP would hassle me about my religion because pagans tend to be more mellow about that sort of thing. Wrong... I have elsewhere related the tale of how an entire reenactor Legion was required to convert to the Religio Romana before they could become affiliated with the Place as a unit. To their credit, they refused. Since I was the tribunus militum (reenactor liaison) that year, I took the hit. And then everyone wanted to know if I was still planning to go on a recruiting-run that summer...!!

God(s) save me from undisciplined children and fundamentalists. (But I repeat myself.)

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:17 am

Salve Mari

Fundamentalists of all faiths are a butt-fungus wherever found. I thought nobody in the OP would hassle me about my religion because pagans tend to be more mellow about that sort of thing. Wrong... I have elsewhere related the tale of how an entire reenactor Legion was required to convert to the Religio Romana before they could become affiliated with the Place as a unit. To their credit, they refused. Since I was the tribunus militum (reenactor liaison) that year, I took the hit. And then everyone wanted to know if I was still planning to go on a recruiting-run that summer...!!

I think everyone agrees here that fundies of any faith are a serious pain in the ass. It wouldn't surprise me to find that some Religio Romana fundies are in the OP. It wouldn't surprise me one bit since they wanted people to convert before joining. Anyhow, it is nice to hear that they stood behind you on this matter. They could have easily put you aside and joined.

God(s) save me from undisciplined children and fundamentalists. (But I repeat myself.)

Wel undisciplined children can be disciplined, but fundies will always be here to annoy other people.
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:00 pm

Salvete

I talked with Coruncanius and the reason why he responed has much to do with his fear of some groups that are affaliated with Asatru in America. Apparently, some ultra-right, white- supremicist groups in the US are affaliated with Asatru. So therefor since this discussion has gotten a bit controversial, we need to put some restrictions on it.
so I think we need to restrict this topic to just the religious practices of the germanic peoples at the time of the Roman empire, their Gods, etc... To milit the controversy of the topic and to not give these groups any forum here.
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Postby Cleopatra Aelia on Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:43 pm

Salvete Omnes

Quintus Aurelius Orcus wrote:I talked with Coruncanius and the reason why he responed has much to do with his fear of some groups that are affaliated with Asatru in America. Apparently, some ultra-right, white- supremicist groups in the US are affaliated with Asatru.


I just feel like to add that this is also a problem in Germany that Neo-Nazis misuse the symbols of the Ancient Germanic believes for their b***sh*** It was a problem wearing a Thor's Hammer necklace that people thought you're a Neo-Nazi but so far I wear this necklace open and haven't been harrassed. I would always explain to people. There are in the meantime also leftist people following the old religious paths so the Thor's Hammer is now just a religious symbol as the crucifix is for the Christians and I wear it like that. I definitely don't wanna have anything to do with Neo-Nazis and even old Nazis. I quit one of the moot groups I was attending because there were two old Nazi grandpas who were really telling the Auschwitz lie and I was about to call the police because that's against the law in Germany. But then they most probably would've denied everything they said. But I made clear to the leader of that moot group that I will never ever sit at the same table again with those two old men.
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Controversy?

Postby Marius on Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:33 am

Controversy?

I've seen no controversy here. I've seen someone post about Asatru, an Asatruar post about her own faith and being harrassed by Christian fundies, me posting "I hear ya!" about the Christian fundies, the author of the topic agreeing about fundies and the OP, and...again, what controversy?

We're just talking, amice. No one has gotten excited; no one has been flamed; no one is evangelizing. We're talking about religion. Ours, others'. Isn't that what a Collegium Religionum is for?

I suggest we put it before the Moderators and the Rector of the Collegium:
-- Is this topic too controversial, or has it become so?
-- Is discussion of it appropriate to the Collegium?

If these worthies say 'Can it', I shall promptly do so. But as a rule I do not submit to the muzzle when I have shown no fang.

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:01 am

Salve Mari

I'
ve seen no controversy here. I've seen someone post about Asatru, an Asatruar post about her own faith and being harrassed by Christian fundies, me posting "I hear ya!" about the Christian fundies, the author of the topic agreeing about fundies and the OP, and...again, what controversy?

Normally I would agree, but Coruncanius has made a point. It is not uncommon for some groups to abuse religion this way. I mean, look at what monotheistic fundies do around the globe.
The last thing we need right now are those people coming here, using it as a forum to spread their bullshit. And by those people I mean the extremist, rascists, etc...
So long that this discussion is limited to discussion religion without trying to spread any kind of propaganda for Gods know what, I will not object to it. I don't know if you remember it, but a while back I made a post about guidelines for this collegium. Perhaps we need to take another look at it and use it here. I have been trying to come up with certain guidelines, but it would be usefull if people here contribute to it.
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Guidelines

Postby Aldus Marius on Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:43 am

Aurelius Orcus' guidelines:

...Found 'em. Posted in September of '04; subject: "Guidelines"; may be summarized as follows:

-- No flaming or harrassment.
-- Respect other religions and others' beliefs.

There was also a request for guideline suggestions from the rest of the Collegium.

Of the policies published so far, I do not find this discussion in violation; have I missed something?

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:12 am

Salve Mari

Just us first focus on creating the guidelines and worry about the rest later on, shall we?
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:49 pm

Salvete

So far I have come up with this:
- No spamming or soliciting
- No flaming of any kind
- No religious bashing of any kind directed at any religion, whether it is Christianity, Judaism, Islam, a pagan tradition, etc.. Every religion has made mistakes in the past. There is no point in arguing continuously about it when it serves no point.
- No personal attacks on any member of this forum, nor on any religion and its adherents.
- As topics are discussed things can get off track, this is not bad, so long as people try to be on topic, and there will be no violation with the rules of this forum. If people want to continue this line of discussion, they can take it off list. The same goes for anyone having any beefs with any other member. Please take your personal disputes off list and handle it in private.
- Discussions will invariably drift as people talk about different topics, but this forum is intended to stay primarily on the subject of Hellenic Paganism, Roman paganism and the ancient religions that were present at the time of the Roman empire; this includes Germanic and/or Norse paganism, Celtic paganism, Mesopotamian paganism (religion of the Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians), Canaanite paganism, Carthaginian paganism, Kemeticism (Egyptian paganism). However, since we live in modern times, this also includes the discussion modern religions related to these ancient religions. For instance, there is no need to discuss the practice of Mexican paganism here. It has nothing to do with the Roman Empire, nor with the religions that existed within it. What can be discussed outside the religions I mentioned are the early days of Christianity, Judaism, and Wicca.
- However, Wiccans who worship any deities of the above mentioned ancient religions are welcome here to discuss how they worship them, but they must remind themselves that this forum will ask for sources of where the information comes from. Their sources might come under attack if it lacks scholarship and even they might come under attack (by which I mean that they will be criticized for how they do it). This is true for any adherent of any faith who comes to this forum. This is a forum where historical correct sources, in other words: quality sources are appreciated over quantity sources- questionable sources, sources that are incorrect or false. Recent years, allot of books have been published by authors whose scholarship are sometimes questionable and the internet has helped spread their message throughout the world.
- No advertisements, particularly those unrelated to the purpose of the forum.
- NO trolling! People who change nicks to avoid moderation will be banned instantly.
- If members of the forum are experiencing problems with other members, they must come to the moderators or rector first before they start attacking each other publicly and disrupt the forum.
What do you think?
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:37 pm

Salve Aureli Orce

This, or an edited form, would be better moved to your "guidelines" post, and perhaps made a sticky.

The guidelines concern posts made by individuals. The request made by Coruncanius raises another matter. Who has the authority in this collegium to end a discussion? I might assume that the rector had such authority, and could elicit the assistance of the aediles in enforcing his decision. A consul might, if it fell under his responsibilities, subject to his colleague's veto, since his authority surpasses that of a rector. And a dispute between a rector and the consules on such a question might be argued before the praetores for a determination, but I would think the consules and praetores could supercede any rector.
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:01 pm

Salve Piscine

I was going to do that, but I wanted to wait if any members here had any thoughts they want to share about these guidelines or ideas/ suggestions they might have to contribute to it.
Well Coruncanius and I did have a discussion on the matter, but we didn't actually see eye-to eye on the matter. If both consuls called an end to a discussion, the discussion must come to a stop, even when the rector calls for it. The consuls and praetores surpasses any authority of the rector, that is what I think, but what happened here was that Coruncanius wanted to put a stop to a discussion which he thaught as going in the wrong direction. He based his discussion mostly on his past experiences with Asastru and Asatru affaliated groups. Except for Cleopatra, I don't know any practicing member of Asatru. But a friend of mine, who has friends who are Asastru, says that this isn't the case generally that most Asastru affaliated groups are either linked to or are extremist, rascists or whatever. You will find these people everywhere in every religion.
It's okay to try to keep these people out of here, but I fear that trying to end any discussion on Asatru will make us just the people that we want to keep out of here.
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:09 pm

Salve

Quintus Aurelius Orcus wrote:It's okay to try to keep these people out of here, but I fear that trying to end any discussion on Asatru will make us just the people that we want to keep out of here.


I agree. There can be a reason for ending some discussions. But designating certain topics as out of bounds is not a healthy way to develop this collegium. And certainly when a discussion has not turned into a problem, there is no reason to end it. The consules and praetores supercede a rector in making such a determination, but then Coruncanius did not express himself in an official capacity, or even state that he would. He only said that he thought that the topic of discussion should be ended. If he wants to shut off the discussion on Asatru then he should first inform his colleague and the Senate and give his reasons. He does not have to act on the advice of the Senate, but it would have to be a collegial decision between the consules.

I have not run into Asatru personally. What I have heard from others is that some people may abuse it for ulterior reasons, but that is not a reflection on Asatru itself or on any particular Asatru group. There is already provision in the RF to act on undesireable participation in the Forum. Membership in Asatru would not in itself constitute an affiliation with an extremist organization since I do not think anyone can show Asatru to be such an extremist organization. Only if individuals expressed extremist views would they be subject to action under the RF. That being the case, anything Coruncanius thinks might happen based on his past experiences can be dealt with under the RF and not have to limit free discussion on any religious tradition in a collegium intended to host such discussions.

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