Priesthood

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Priesthood

Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:32 pm

Salvete
To become a clergy of the Religio Romano or Hellenic polytheism/ Hellenism, you need to understand what kind of duties you must perform and if you are prepared to perform them. For Hellenism, it is more a demos who is to the best of my knoweledge, Hellenism as it was practiced 2000 years ago didn't had any priesthood with a few exceptions. According to Drew Campbell, the head of each family was responsible for performing the necessary rituals. He says that next to this, in the cities priests or priestesses were selected sometimes by lot- from the elite. These priests were there to perform the public rituals and maintaining the temples. I think that the priesthood in Hellas had a different meaning than the meaning it has now. But i think there were exceptions. Drew also says Some positions were hereditary like the positions within the Mysteries of Demeter or Dionysos. I can imagine that this is true but i'm not sure of the state priesthood as it was defined back than as people leading ceremonies, rituals, festivals and maintaining the temples. Not as people who gave advice or counseling to people like the Christian priests do. This counseling was probably done by the head of the family. I think the kind of priesthood in Rome who performed these kind of functions were called Sacerdos. At first i liked the idea of a priesthood but the arguments Piscine gave us, were a insight of the task that is ahead of us. I think Piscine suggested we start with recognition of the Sacerdotes title. I have to agree that this is a good start. According to the Other it says:" There are a vast number of major and minor Roman deities that were served by "lesser known" Priests and Priestesses in the ancient Roman world. The Sacerdotes are the lesser "everyday" priesthoods that tend the temples and shrines, indextain the worship of a deity, and who assist the populace with their worship of that deity.
The Sacerdotes that oversee the worship of deities that do not have their own Flamen or Collegia (or who assist Flamens in the worship of specific God or Goddess). There is, in essence, no limit to the number of Sacerdotes that may serve a deity. "
If we have a strict guideline for a Sacerdos. We might have a start but i feel that the pontifice must discuss this.
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Postby Anonymous on Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:12 am

Social/psychological counseling may not have been performed by the ancient clergy, but anyone in the modern era posing themselves as clergy most likely will find themselves faced with the problem of people wanting a friendly ear to hear their problems. Or a shoulder to cry on. It's something that is expected of clergy of any stripe, thanks in part to the Christian influence.

I'm not entiring advocating a policy on this, I am merely expressing a realistic observation. Unless there is a clear and present understanding in the Religio that Clegy are solely about performing rites, etc, they better be willing to play sympathetic counselor. *shrugs*

I think the hereditary priesthood was confined mostly to the Mysteries and the Oracles. It shouldn't bother us much in the mainstream religion (but it does beg the question -- what is our attitude to the Mystery religions and the other esoteric aspects of Paganism? I know some of the Hellenic Reconstructionists are trying to recreate the mysteries of Demeter and Dionysus. Gods only know what they are divising).

As to the rest, I like the idea of the Sarcedos, a minor priest perfomring rites to some diety of another. I'm not entirely cognizant of the religious hierarchy in this organization, but by all means if the recognized leaders must confer first before passing any decisions in public, please do so.
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:10 pm

Salve Urse
A shoulder to cry on is one thing. If you have a problem it is always good to be able to go to someone and talk about it who actually listens but no matter what the circumastances are, they must be referred to a professional who should know how to deal with these kind of problems. Unless the priest has a degree in psychology and how to deal with problems like in a marriage or etc..., the priests can not not counsel them only give the advice to seek professional guidance.
What i think they can do is to give religious guidance. That i think they can do. But it is also one of the problems concerning a priesthood. Where does one draw the line? I think it is one of the issues that need to be discussed by the Pontifices.
I think you refer to the Thiasos Dionysos; a religious group that tries to recreate the Dionysian religion.
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:24 pm

Salvete collegae omnes

I will prefrence my comments by referring to our Regula Fundamentalis.
I.4 "The Societas recognizes the recreated and reformed Religio Romana as its official spiritual basis, but guarantees full freedom of religious belief, conscious and practice to its members in whatever tradition of faith they follow."

VIII.5 "Collegia are responsible for their own internal organization, and are not subject to interference by the Senatus or any magistratus, with the exception of the Aediles, whose responsibility it is to ensure that democratic procedures and the protection of individual rights are being carried out in each collegium..."

I will emphasize once more that the Collegium Religionis is not, and has never been, intended solely for practitioners of the Religio Romana. Our Societas is a community, composed of various individuals, choosing their own paths in different religious traditions. The Collegium Religionis may be said to be most responsible for developing the spiritual life of our community, and the Religio Romana is given a special role, but not an exclusive role in our Societas. The Collegium Religionis may, if it so desires as a whole, to recognize certain individuals as a priesthood serving the gods and the community of SVR. If we do decide on that, then it cannot be solely a priesthood for the Religio Romana.

In the imperial period, outside Rome and its immediate area, the imperial culti deorum of local communities were administered by flamines. Not quite the same type of flamines we know in the Religio Romana. In addition each temple was headed by a sacredotus. Sacredotus is a general term for priest. Additionally there were a variety of religious sodalitates. If we were to form priesthoods for SVR, and do so in a manner that respects all religious traditions, then I think we should consider the religious life in Roman towns rather than Rome itself and only the Religio Romana. We should be flexible in our approach.

Cicero will have to explain his ideas more, but what I have gathered thus far, with priests and priestess dedicated to serving a particular deity, this refers to flamines. Individuals in SVR who wish to promoted the worship of a particular deity on our lists and write contributions for our websites could be regarded as flamines.

In addition, individuals who establish and maintain real world facilities of worship, such as shrines, sanctuaries, or religious groups, I would designate as sacredotes. Others who maintain virtual temples online could also be designated as sacredotes or as curiones.

Individual members who wish to gather either in local groups or online could form sodalitates.

None of the flamines, sacrodates, curiones, or sodalitates would necessarily have to be positions limited to any particular faith. The priests of various non-Roman temples were still referred to as sacredotes, such as the priests who administered the mysteries of Eleussium, or the temples of Egypt. In some instances, in the provinces, there were flamines and sacredotes to composite deities such as Ceres-Isis. Then there were sodalitates for different purposes, these were regulated by the Roman Senate. A Mithraist group, or a Christian congregation for that matter, could be taken as a sodalitas, and have its own flamines or sacredotes.

In addition, because of the role set for the Religio Romana for SVR, there could be additional priesthoods to consider, such as augures and Vestales Virgines, to serve special functions for our Societas. We continue to use the titles of pontifices for the officials of this Collegium Religionis, which I think needs to be rectified since our collegial officials do not fill the role of pontifices. I do not think we wish to create a hierarchial system of priesthoods, so certain titles should not be used. Keep it simple and keep it to serving the needs of our community.

The collegium as a whole should consider whether we wish to take this step of creating priesthoods for SVR. From our discussions on the lists, the pontifices will then be responsible to draft a proposal for the collegae to vote on. If we wish to grant titles and honours, recognizing some individuals as priests and priestesses for SVR, then the Senate of SVR may also need to give its approval of the measure.

I assume that since this idea has been brought up on different occasions, that there is felt to be a need to form priesthoods for SVR. That is the first thing to consider. Then we can address what priesthoods, define their responsibilities and the requirements set to grant such titles and honours. Any titles and honours we would grant to be used in the whole of SVR and outside this collegium should be approved by the Senate before implementation.

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:34 pm

Salve Piscine
<I will emphasize once more that the Collegium Religionis is not, and has never been, intended solely for practitioners of the Religio Romana. Our Societas is a community, composed of various individuals, choosing their own paths in different religious traditions. The Collegium Religionis may be said to be most responsible for developing the spiritual life of our community, and the Religio Romana is given a special role, but not an exclusive role in our Societas. The Collegium Religionis may, if it so desires as a whole, to recognize certain individuals as a priesthood serving the gods and the community of SVR. If we do decide on that, then it cannot be solely a priesthood for the Religio Romana.>
You have point. If we decide to form a priesthood it can not be solely for its practitioners within the collegium religionis but for whole SVR. And like you said, it can't be just for the religio romano. It must also be for Hellenism, Judaism, Christianity, etc... I think this is taken for granted.
If i understand you correct, thani can be regarded as possible flamine (open for debate) and sacredos and/or curione because i have a online temple to Hades within shrines to both Hekate and Persephone.
I have a Thiasos Hades which has the function to gather the followers of the Theoi Khthonoi, especially those who serve Hades and/or Hekate like myself. So you could call it an Sodalitates, but i have my doubts on calling that a Sodalitate since it is more focued on the Gods of the Underworld than on one or three Gods.
Concerning the titles of Pontifices. I think it should remain but should have the meaning of a religiousteacher, instructer. Someone who guides people and helps people solving their possible religious problems like where to go to or who to contact. That sort of things. It is one of the things we need to explore deeper but like you said, there is definitly no need for a hierarchy within Col. Religionis. That I agree with because it can only bring problems with such a structure. But I think that the Pontifices should also be a council where people can submit their proposals on becoming a "priest" (I use this because the definition of a priest here within SVr is not yet determined) i haven't really thought about the last part since my mind is to occupied with a art project for my school and i can say that next year it wouldn't be any different. But that is offtopic.
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:55 am

Salve Orce

It still needs to be decided what titles we would use, and what requirements would need fulfilling to receive a title, or how it would be granted. But from what I outlined, then yes, you would be elligible to receive more than one title.

I understand your point on having pontifices to review individuals for consideration of religious titles. That is a good idea. They need not be called pontifices however. I do not want to see us giving out meaningless titles as I have seen some other online communities. I would not name a person a flamen on their promise to work at promoting their chosen deity, but to someone who has been doing so. The role I would give to the pontifices in this case would be nominate individuals for a title, and allow the entire collegium to vote on granting it. And if you mean that these nominating pontifices should be the collegium officials as we already elect, there is no problem in giving them that extra responsibility.


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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:38 pm

Salve Piscine
I to endorse a provincial based sodales where people can meet and join together as one group of people following a tradition.
Concerning the pontifices, i meant that the pontifices should have the role and function it has now. Meaning that they get elected by the collegium. Basicly my vision here was the same as yours.
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