the neo-pagan community

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the neo-pagan community

Postby Anonymous on Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:45 pm

Over the past 5 or 6 years that I have identified myself as a practitioner of Religio Romana, I have sought out people of like mind in my immediate geographical area to associate with. In doing this, I have expedcted to be welcomed by the greater pagan community. In 3 major cities, Albuquerque, Toledo, and Tacoma I have attempted to do this, but each time I have experienced criticism and ridicule for my chosen form of spirituality. I have been asked "Why Roman? Why not greek?" and "why would you want to emulate a race of oppressors" The murderors of the Druids?" and "Didnt they just copy the greeks?" These questions are usually thinly veiled with political correctness and politness at first, but over a period of weeks or months the attacks intensify until I eventually leave. I was never a wiccan. I came to religio through Asatru, but left asatru because i do not identify with warrior ethics. I never knew much about wicca, but now that I am reading "Drawing down the Moon" I am beginning to understand. Reconstructionism and WIcca are very very different.
I have decided to try once again to reassociate with Neo-Pagans. Is there any advice people can offer? How can I present Religio in a way that doesnt immediately offend them? Could it be something I am doing?
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:12 pm

Salve Ovidi Mezenti,

I am not a practicioner of the Religio Romana but I have heard in the past that within religious communities being "pagan" can sometimes cause quite a lot of ruckus. And from what I've heard the small percentage of "pagans" spends a lot of their time bickering among each other who is the more pure and the more "real".

In my humble opinion totally reconstructing any faith that died a good millennium ago is virtually impossible, especially if it wasn't organised or didn't have much in writing (which is, sadly, the case for most religions from antiquity).

Well, as for the negative connotations Romans seem to bear in some people's minds, you can always ask your interlocutors for proof of their assertions. Most opinions are based on rumours, gut feelings and vaguely remembred fragments of education, books and tv. The Romans were not genocidal in the sense that they intended to exterminate another people or race. Some christian fundies might fling at you that the Romans persecuted christians and that they are responsible for Jesus' death.

They didn't persecute christians because they disliked their faith, but because the christians refused to recognise the emperor as divine and were therefore seen as subversive and dangerous. It had nothing to do with religion, actually, at least not for the Romans. Also, christians haven't been exactly innocent too, over the past two millennia.

Besides, why should people take you responsible for what the Romans did in the past??

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Reconstructionist Difficulties

Postby Anonymous on Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:33 pm

You stated in your previous post that reconstructing a religion that died out a millenia ago is nearly impossible. Do you see difficulties in reconstructing the Religio as well?
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:34 pm

Salve Ovidi

An aspect of religion, any religion, is that it offers community to an individual. Something that is difficult to find in some places for practitioners of the Religio Romana. It sounds as though the individuals you have been running into need some education, and therefore you will need to do more study on your own faith perhaps, but if you simply explain what you feel, how you connect to your gods then they should understand.

How you deal with the bigotry of others usually depends upon yourself. Usually I find confrontations humorous. I was raised in my tradition, and have fifty years of experience dealing with people of other faiths, so how I handle such matters would likely be different than you might. How I respond depends on how I am approached. I have never hid the fact that I follow a pagan tradition, and when people first come upon me they usually become flustered. My first Sunday in the US Army they called us into formation, the First Sargent said all the Catholics go to the right, all the Protestants to the left, which left two of us still remaining in formation. The First Sargent then barked down at the fellow beside me, "What's your problem?" "I'm Jewish," he replied. "Then choose, Catholic or Protestant, but you're going to chapel today." Then he turn to me, barking some complaint on my lack of hearing." "No, I'm not Jewish, and I am not Christian, I am a polytheist." He got too flustered to know what to do, so he said "Well, then go do whatever it is you people do." Back then, the army not recognizing any pagan traditions, decided to list me as a Buddhist. And so it went, "don't bother him, he's a Buddhist." Growing up it was usually the same. If the neighbors didn't understand what we were doing they would explain it away by attributing it to our being "different". We were Italians living in a Polish neighborhood, Catholics in a Protestant, "Oh, no? Then they must be Jewish" or Muslim, or anything else because it usually upset others that we were pagan, and upset them more that we preferred to remain pagan, and the last thing anyone ever wanted to do was confront us over the issue. And wiccans, I have never had any good experiences with wiccans, or perhaps it is they who have never had a good experience with me.

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:06 pm

Salve Ovidi
The dificulties with reconstructionism is that at one point you are required to use some of your own input into the reconstruction of a religion which i mean by that in the end you have to put some elements in it that aren't part of that religion. Completely reconstructing a religion is impossible since there are alot of things we don't know ( the mystery religions, etc..)or they come from unreliable sources. Hellenic pagans go through the same problems practitioners of the religio romano get through.
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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Thu May 01, 2003 1:34 pm

Salve Orce

What you say is true but it is only a problem to reconstructionists who perform an exercise in reconstructive history, not religion. Religion involves self identity to a wider world, relationships with the gods, with one's community, and with one's family. A religion is therefore a living and progressing, a very human thing. While reconstruction is only an incomplete facade. In restoring a religious tradition one must seek to understand the tradition, live within it, but a tradition is not so restrictive or limiting as one may think. If anything true may be said of the Religio Romana tradition it is that the mos maiorum was constantly changing.

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Thu May 01, 2003 3:16 pm

Salvete Sokare, Piscine et Ovidi,

Excellent point, mi Piscine. I would like to abuse it to respond to Ovidius' second question about the point of following an ancient religion if it can't be properly reconstructed. I think following a religion is not always the same as doing all the rites correctly.

I am not an overly religious person so it could be due to this, but I've always believed that sincerity and feeling are more important than having everything correct. It must be noted, however, that the Romans were crazy over rituals and were deadly afraid to do anything incorrect. Of course, study never hurts and at some point invididual practicioners must make choices wether they go with this or that approach (for example, blood sacrifice or not?) but as long as an approach can be historically traced back I believe there isn't a problem, as long as it doesn't become a moonie potpourri hybrid religion.

In my more fervent Buddhist period I once read that for practicioners, study and faith are equally important. I think this applies for most religions. Faith without study is mindless, study without faith is heartless.

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Thu May 01, 2003 7:25 pm

Salvete
Good point, Draco. No ancient religion can completly be reconstructed as there are to many areas where personal gnosis must fill the void. But the difference between eclectic and a recon pagan lies that a eclectic pagan has a tradition based upon several different traditions and Gods like Quetzalquatl, Mercurius, Hermes, Donar, Zeus, Jupiter, etc.. put together in one pantheon while a recon stic to one tradition from one culture like Egyptian, Hellenic, Roman, Celtic, Teutonic, etc...
A recon pagan will study and practice his religion and study its history and its Gods and values as the relationships these Gods have with oneanother. Unfortunatly these people are a minority within the pagan community due Wicca and other neo-pagan movements. There is nothing wrong with these religions but i think that one of the reasons Drew Campbell wrote his book "Old Stones, New Temples" is because he knows he can reach more people with the basic knoweledge of these Gods. Even though i haven't heard there was a dutch translation, it is still out of reach of most people where books like Greek myths and the White Goddess are translated and availeble in the better bookstores. That is somewhat frustrating.
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Reconstructing or rediscovering?

Postby Anonymous on Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:54 am

Greetings,
I tend to view 'reconstructing' as a more historically oriented pursuit and what neo-pagans (including myself) do as more of a 'rediscovering' of various aspects of the beliefs of our predecessors.
If specifically asked, I will agree that I am a pagan or even a Wiccan but I think of myself as just a Goddess worshipper.
The image of the Goddess I worship is named Maria Lionza, a still-actively-worshipped deity of the Caribe indians of northern Venezuela. But I have in my home images of Laksmi/Kali/Durga, Ceres, Venus, Aurora (for whom my daughter is named), and others. I have made offerings at temples for Bellona and the Magna Mater in Ostia, the temples of Diana and Minerva at Pompeii, and at the temple of Isis I helped excavate at Cumae.
For me they are all different aspects of the spirit of the planet upon which we tread. Worthy of equal honor and respect.
I associate with a large number of men and women who feel the same way and recognize the validity of the beliefs of others. (even those who seem to want to burn us at the stake)

I too have found _some_ wiccans, like many others who care to narrowly identify themselves, to be too rigid and more-paganer-than thou. I think they kind of miss the point but that's their path, not mine.

And yes, I honor too the Gods as aspects of the male energy that shares this orb. I am just more comfortable with Her.

Gentilis Victoriosus (Blue Owl Wizard of Yara)
(a likely poor attempt at translating the meaning of my Irish-Gaelic name)
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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:14 am

I remember seeing the statue of Maria Lionza when I lived in Caracas. I did not know then what the statue represented. I was curious; what could a sculpture of a voluptuous maiden riding a pig mean? But I never asked.

Now that I know a little bit about the goddess, it occurs to me that she might have inspired Dona Barbara by Romulo Gallegos. His heroine is a woman who represents all that is wild and who is the "devourer of men". According to her myth, Maria Lionza destroyed her entire village and and became mistress of her lagoon and by extension all of nature.

If you've read Dona Barbara, or seen the excellent Mexican movie adaptation of the book, I'd be interested in knowing what you think.

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Maria Lionza/Yara

Postby Anonymous on Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:57 am

Tergestus-
I have a life-painting of that statue tattooed on my left leg.
(I assume that by now you know that the 'pig' is a tapir, the largest herbivor of the rainforest, whose only threats are jaguar and man. It is sometimes called the 'ghost of the jungle' by woodcutters since even though it vegetarian it has formidable claws and is highly territorial and will chase humans who intrude on its space.}
She holds above her head the pelvic bone of jaguar. Another part of her story is that when living around the lake Jaguar got greedy and ate up all the animals so she fought with him and slit open his belly, setting forth all life (including humans).
She and Tapir are standing atop an anaconda because another part of the story is that Anaconda got jealous of Her power and drank up all the water in the laguna. She wrestled him and squeezed out the Amazon and Orinoco rivers.
The destruction of the village you mention I assume is the part of her story that because she was born with green eyes she was considered an evil omen and was supposed to be slain by her father but when he did not it brought destruction to the village though She lived on.
Quite telling, isn't it, that the 3 'evil' aspects of Her story are greed, jealousy, and failure to obey the social contract. For a small hunter-gatherer society those three things may well be the most destructive.

I haven't read the book or seen the movie but I do have pretty good access to foreign language materials here in San Francisco. I'll look around.
There are many other indigenous S American goddess stories that very closely resemble that of Yara (her pre-Columbian name). It sounds like Dona Barbara is one of those.
I'd be happy to send you a pic of Her statue if you'd like. Is it possible to post it anywhere here?
I have two texts about Yara/Maria Lionza. One is a street pamphlet for Santeras and the other a very dense treatise by Dra. Angelina Pollak-Eltz (Maria Lionza Mito y Culto Venezolano, 1985)

All the best,
Gentilis
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Postby Primus Aurelius Timavus on Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:09 am

Salve Gentilis,

I don't know if it is possible to post a photo to this site, but you could surely include a hotlink to a place where the statue appears on the web, if you know of one.

Forgive me for saying this, I mean no disrespect to the deity; I am speaking only of the statue. When I passed the sculpture I was more intent on looking at the young woman portrayed rather than at her companions or attributes. She is quite striking, at least to my taste.

I heard that the Venezuelan dictator Jimenez ordered the construction of the statue. I wonder how many of Venezuela's (and Colombia's and Trinidad's) leaders were devotees of the goddess. Carlos Andres Perez was from the Andes (some say he was born over the border in Colombia, in fact), so probably not. Maybe Hugo Chavez? Hmm.

Vale,

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Postby Anonymous on Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:46 pm

Salvete

I realise the conversation has moved on but hope you don't mind me adding my two pence worth.

My answers or “Ask a stupid question...”

"Why Roman? Why not greek?"
Because as the indegenous tradition of Western Europe it’s my spiritual and religious heritage. :D

"Why would you want to emulate a race of oppressors?"
Because it’s better than emulating the oppressed! :twisted:

"The murderers of the Druids?"
Actually it was only the degenerate ones that were executed!
If it’s a Wiccan thats cross examing you, you could exclaim
Oh! those guys that went around burning witches !!! (There is some evidence for this) :lol:

"Didnt they just copy the greeks?"
Surpassed would be the correct word! :roll:


Q; How can I present Religio in a way that doesnt immediately offend them?
A; Perhaps you could present it as “Classical” Paganism, from which they draw their Neo-pagan inspiration ?

Vale
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