On ancestral worship in China and Rome

[Aulus Dionysius Mencius]

Salvete omnes

During my stay in China, I was confronted with ancestor worship, ie a ceremonial offering. So I got interested in the matter and learned that , in my view, there are similarities with the Roman version.

First, I wish to present the Chinese view, starting from the marriage, the beginning of a family.

As said, the marriage of a man and a woman is the start. When you have a family, the marriage of its younger members is needed to ensure the continuance of the family.

An individual must die, but, if he has descendants, death is not the absolute end of his life. If one has descendants, one enjoys a biological immortality, which is the case for all living creatures, I think. The only difference with animal life is, that this is brought into view through the social organistation of the family.

With this organisation of the family, the deceased also enjoys an ideal immortality through their works and their families. In their works one's own work is continued, and in their memories one continues to be known. This is the traditional view on marriage. According to 'Sacred Books of the East , the Li Chi, or Book of Rites, says that the purpose of marriage is " to secure the service for the ancestral temple for the past, and the continuation of the family for the future."

According to tradition, it was a great duty for a son to become father. If he failed to do this, not only would his own life face extinction, but what is more important, the life of his ancestors, carried on by him, would also be terminated.
If a man has sons and grandsons, he is at peace, because he knows that his life and that of his ancestors has already been entrusted to others. There is no reason in worrying whether or not his soul would live on after death when he is already assured of his remebrance, and thus immortality.

This is the essential meaning of ancestral worship (in China). It has both social and spiritual function. Socially, it served as a means for solidarity amongst the family. Since the Chinese family system was very complex, its solidarity depended upon some symbol of unity, and the ancestors were the natural symbol.

In this case, in the practise of ancestral worship the deceased, whether good or bad, great or insignificant, has a role in the living world again. And also, he who practises the worship, does so with the conviction that he will be known by his descendants in the same way.

What I find very interesting, is that in such circumstances, he feels that his life is a link in an indefinite chain of lives, and this fact is the insignificance and significance of his existance at the same time.

I believe that in Roman ancestral worship it is quite the same. My question to you all is the following.

The Chinese don't see this practise as a religious one, because no superstitous elements are present. When talking about the Roman ancestral worship, do we, and why is it that we, Westerners, talk about it being part of Religio Romana?

Sorry for the long read, amici... but nevertheless, I await reactions.

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salve Menci

Do we what? I am not sure I understand your question. Ancestral worship is central to the Religio Romana. We do not consider it superstious. Indeed if ancestral worship was performed superstitiously we would not consider it being performed correctly with the tradition of the Religio Romana. It must be done "religiously" which means there is a regimen of ancestral worship that is to be performed each day, each month, and throughout the year. The same I believe is true in Chinese practice. Westerners tend to separate out religion from other activities. That may be the difference in our perception of ancestor worship as part of our religion, but even in the Religio Romana it is meant to be such an integral part of our daily lives as to be inseparateable.

Your other observations on Chinese practice is interesting. Note how often the same name is used repeatedly in Roman families, from generation to generation so that it becomes confusing at times as to which individual is meant. A magistrate who has the same name as an ancestor will promote the same legislation, as Publius Valerius of different generations kept re-enacting the right of provocatio. And Decius Mus, father and son, performed a devotio, with supposedly a third Decius Mus performing the same rite, emulating his ancestors, and perhaps even identifying with them.

I would curious too to hear more from you on how ancestor worship is actually performed in Chinese culture, and then see how that may relate to Roman practice.

Vale bene

[Aulus Dionysius Mencius]

Salve, mi Marce

Yes, I already thought my question was badly phrased... sorry

What I meant was the following. I should have stressed the word RELIGIO. This is a term, often misinterpreted and easily misused, because it has no clear definitions.

The Chinese do not consider ancestral worship to be a religious act. As I pointed out earlier, there is no supernaturalism or superstition involved. And yet, the psychological effect is that a man is saved from the momentariness of his life and gains a genuine feeling of a life beyond.

Did the Romans share this awareness?

From your answer, I could deduce that you use the term religio for Roman worship in the sense of religious acts, to be performed on a regular basis, etc. But did the Romans thought that there was supernaturalism involved? Having read your answer, I guess not.

Chinese view : through ancestor worship a man can have salvation without a god or divine saviour.

Vale bene

[/i]

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salve

In order to have an idea of salvation you need to conceive somthing to be saved from. The same is true of a divine savior. Such ideas are not in the Religio Romana, not in the sense I think you mean. Juno and Minerva are called Sospita, meaning "savior" within earthly situations, most having to do with women; i.e saving them in childbirth, always a dangerous situation for women then, and perhaps, too, saving women from abusive situations in their marriage. Juno as a savior of Rome, warning them against an attack of the Gauls, is called Moneta, so not the same as Juno Sospita who came from Satricum. None of this has to do with a Christian concept of salvation, where the world is viewed as being evil and needs to be escaped. The later mystery religions have savior gods and a concept of salvation, although it is debateable whether that salvation was thought to occur after death.

The term RELIGIO should be considered in the context in which it is used in the Religio Romana. Cicero gives two definitions of it, and uses of the term by other Romans would seem to confirm what he said. One performs the rites owed to the gods and the ancestors because it is a duty to do so. There is too a sense of preserving the natural order of things, much as you described for the Chinese ancestor worship. Ancestor worship in the Religio Romana I would say does not involve supernaturalism in a Roman's understanding. Rather the religio sought to preserve communities. One community would be the family, and then the gens. There were other 'communities' one would belong to, your vicus, pagus, tribus, curio, sodales, military unit, municipia and Rome itself, whether thought of as the city itself or the empire. In a wider sense, too, religious acts might be thought to preserve the universe. What the religio gave in return was a sense of identity in each level of community that one participated in, and so one gained a sense of personal identity. Beyond that there were what we today would call supernaturalism, but then Chinese practice to a Westerner also involves supernaturalism. To Romans and Chinese offerings made to the ancestors is natural rather than supernatural or superstitious. The Romans did consider it to be a religious act, even a religious duty. Why would the Chinese not recognize ancestor worship as a religious act?

Vale

[Aulus Dionysius Mencius]

Salve

To answer your question, mi Marce, I would like to say the following. The Chinese do not consider ancestor worship to be a religious act, precisely because it is their conviction that no supernaturalism is involved.

Ancestor worship is performed above all as an expression of filial love (hsiau), one of the most important concepts in Chinese thought, more than a religious act.

But I am sure that you can counter my reasoning... Are you up for it?
No, seriously, I think it all depends on what your conception of the term religion is, and everyone has its own, nonne?

But, like you said, there are similarities, so I am glad I posted this subject.

Vale bene

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Interesting posting mi Menci, I enjoyed reading it (and Piscinus' reactions).

It seems to me that ancestral worship is common in many cultures. I would even be so bold as to say that I think this can be a very positive thing, to attain a greater connection with your own family and family history. Many people appear to feel disconnected in some way because most Western societies stress indvidualism to such a degree that some feel lonely or disconnected (suicide is one of the most common causes of death in Belgium and I think most Scandinavian countries).

I'm not saying ancestral worship could prevent people from becoming depressed, but at least the thought that in one form or another your ancestors are with you can be comforting.

I have a question for both of you, by the way. If there was an evil family member, like a murderer or a rapist, would he be worshipped as well, or "cast out" of the lararium?

Valete!
Draco

[Aulus Dionysius Mencius]

Draco wrote : I have a question for both of you, by the way. If there was an evil family member, like a murderer or a rapist, would he be worshipped as well, or "cast out" of the lararium?

I will present the Chinese point of view, maybe Marcus will give the Roman one...

A man, if he has sons, will be revered... whether he is good or bad. It is an expression of filial duty to do so. Plain and simple...

[Horatius Piscinus]

Salvete

The Romans did disown family members who disgraced the family. There was too, like what Mencius mentioned in Chinese society, strong filial loyalty. One who was publicly disgraced and exiled would not necessarily be thrown out, since exile was usually politically motivated. Filial loyalty to an exiled parent may even have been regarded as the highest form of piety. Certainly in some cases we know this was true.

In my own family this poses a little problem. Murderers and rapists doesn't even begin to relate what some of my ancestors were. They are still held in respect, considered as Lares, or Cominui as we call them. Even a family of scoundrals has its heroes

Valete

[Aulus Dionysius Mencius]

* Mencius barges in, looks around and drops his three-section staff in shock due to the twisted grin he has stumbled upon *

Marce,

We can only hope that you are a ehr... a somewhat more gentle person, can we?

[Horatius Piscinus]

Marcus leans forward, momentarily revealled from the shadows, grayed and weathered, still bearing the scars of his youth

Menci, I use to work for US intelligence during the Viet Nam War, and the fact of the matter is that no one before or since ever hired me to be a nice guy.

You can say I have since mellowed with age.

[Gnaeus Dionysius Draco]

Piscine, as long as you aren't being hired to make appearances at kids' birthday parties you know you haven't mellowed too much.

By the way, thanks for the info on this subject.

Vale bene,
Draco