Politics, ethnicity and connections to the ancients

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:27 pm

Salve Flave,

We seem to be drifting really off-topic again here, but nonetheless, allow me to say a few things.

There is no such thing as one culture per people. If culture was a homogenous bloc (i.e. "French culture", "Russian culture", etc etc) then this would pose some serious logical problems: how do cultures evolve if they do not experience influences from the outside? Secondly, and this is an even more important problem for your theory to consider: if there is such a thing as a "pure" culture per people or ethnic sub-group, where did it come from? We all agree that the human race spread from East Africa and then across the world. All cultures eventually come from the same culture. People diverge. But they merge as well. History in general and culture in particular is an ever-changing movement. This is the very definition of a living, breathing culture.

Lucius Aurelius Flavus wrote:Immigration is partly creating a mass homogenised consumerist, materialist, and individualist culture which is signalling the decline of the West. After all, what is of cultural importance nowadays? Cultural genius seems to be a quality sorely lacking in the modern Western World.


You contradict yourself at several points. A culture cannot be homogenised and individualist at the same time. Nor can immigration both cause alienation (as you described with ghettos) and homogenisation at the same time. Third, I must retaliate with a question to your remark about geniuses: did people in the late 16th century believe that William Shakespeare was a genius? Probably not. Who the geniuses of our age are will only be appearent after at least 50 years have passed.

Lucius Aurelius Flavus wrote:And please tell me which native people would freely allow themselves to be displaced in their own lands? Frankly that is suicide for the people, and a sad reflection of modern Europe. Neighbourhoods, towns and cities in Europe will in the future be in the hands of non-Europeans. A sad reflection of this is what a Danish friend of mine told me about certain neighbourhoods in Copenhagen which are controlled by Arabs and Muslims and possibly other non-Europeans, areas where native people do not even dare thread, areas which the native people saw themselves being taken away by these immigrants who are apparently not-so-peaceful and civilised. When hearing such things I wonder were certain people get their idea of cultural richness through immigration of non-Europeans. This is certainly something I would not want for my own country.


No, as immigration exists right now, the situation is not right. But to blame the immigrants for these problems (including your remark about materialism and consumerism) is overblown and far-fetched.

I'll tell you a few things.

Here in Belgium, most notably Flanders, Vlaams Blok is whipping up people into racial hatred. In fact, even many people who despise the party have become so influenced by their doctrine that they will automatically be suspicious of black or Arab people, with generalisations à la "they're all thieves" or "they only come here to steal our jobs away" or "they don't work and live on social security", etc etc. Well, if you treat people like dirt they won't remain calm and try to integrate. A friend of mine is acquainted with a Maroccan man. He speaks 6 languages fluently and went to college. But he cannot get a job higher than factory worker. How just is that?

Sure, it's true that quite a number of young immigrant people (in Europe, usually of Arab descent) are into criminality, but that is because they can't find a job, are under pressure from their peers not even to make an effort to integrate (because they are not quite unjustifiedly afraid of prejudice and hatred). And so, the gap will only widen further. The immigrants (usually people who lived here all their life, mind you) will then desperately cling to their own culture and may foster fundamentalist opinions because they feel so ill at ease in the modern world.

I can assure you and your Danish friend that the Arab people he's talking about are probably just as unhappy about this situation. These immigration problems are way more complex than simplified notions about European culture.

In closing, I might point out that your own home country is a perfect example of a culture moulded by a lot of influences: Roman, Arab, christian, Romance, British, "internatial culture"... etc etc. I would be proud of that if I were you ;).

Vale bene,
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:29 pm

It is simple for me: everybody, European, or non-European is welcome here. Why exclude somebody because he is 'non-european'. Does that give him less rights to live?

Even if you look upon the facts as a capitalist (i.e. economy first!), these people contribute to our 'civilisation': immigrants do spend their money here also, so we benefit from that. In result (demand has gone up), production must go up, and thus more employees are needed to cope with the raising demand.

Has anyone problems with the fact that english is the leading language on the internet? Why should we then have problems with Arabic being the leading language in matters concerning islam, oil etc? I would rather want all the belgians to learn turkish than the Turks immigrating to this country learning dutch, french, german or whatever (it must be very difficult to come to a country like belgium, where they speak three languages...). All right, this is a bit extreme, but If you learn english, why would it be wrong to learn turkish, arabic or whatever? When an american asks something in english, I will answer in English. But apparently non-european languages are worth less.

There is no sensible reason why we wouldn't allow immigrants to come in. Culture? The euro would diminish national cultures because we loose our own currency! the horror! Has anyone ever heard someone complain afterwards? all right, the adaptation, but do I feel less belgian because I no longer pay with belgian franks? Would I feel less belgian (or flemish or whatever) when there would be living a chinese next door? Maybe she's pretty!

No seriously, I understand that people feel threatened, but that's the fear of the unknown. It will disappear after a while. In the meanwhile we must try not to overreact.

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:31 pm

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:It is simple for me: everybody, European, or non-European is welcome here. Why exclude somebody because he is 'non-european'. Does that give him less rights to live?


They are more likely to have problems with integrating and facing a lot of prejudice. For example, a Swiss person will have less of a hard time to get to know our society than an Indian person would.

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:Even if you look upon the facts as a capitalist (i.e. economy first!), these people contribute to our 'civilisation': immigrants do spend their money here also, so we benefit from that. In result (demand has gone up), production must go up, and thus more employees are needed to cope with the raising demand.


The point is, as I made before, that Western Europe is becoming overpopulated. I live in a fairly rural village, but this is "rural" to Belgian standards. If my village were transposed to Tadjikistan we would be regarded as a middle-large, urbanised town. I have been on this planet for 20 years and I've lived here in this village for 19 years. In these 19 years, the amount of houses has increased here with 1/3, two forests were cut down and the street I live in, which used to be populated only around the village centres, is now populated throughout, obstructing the magnificent view over the Scheldt valley. Belgium (and certainly Flanders) is almost "full".

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:Has anyone problems with the fact that english is the leading language on the internet? Why should we then have problems with Arabic being the leading language in matters concerning islam, oil etc? I would rather want all the belgians to learn turkish than the Turks immigrating to this country learning dutch, french, german or whatever (it must be very difficult to come to a country like belgium, where they speak three languages...). All right, this is a bit extreme, but If you learn english, why would it be wrong to learn turkish, arabic or whatever? When an american asks something in english, I will answer in English. But apparently non-european languages are worth less.


There is a difference. The former British Commonwealth and the USA together represent the dominant economic, political and military forces in the world. Plus, internet spread from the US. If an American would come to live in Belgium, it is true that he would be met with less prejudice than an Iraqi person (which is a pity), but I would still expect the American person to try to integrate.

I have an Irish neighbour. She knows I can speak English very well and that I can understand her completely. But I always speak Dutch with her, because I know she can understand me and I expect her to make an effort to integrate in the local community. I do not want to live in the Tower of Babel.

I am quite possibly going to learn Arabic in the future (just for fun). But I'm still very relentless on language. If you move to France, for instance, no one will understand a word of Dutch.

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:There is no sensible reason why we wouldn't allow immigrants to come in. Culture? The euro would diminish national cultures because we loose our own currency! the horror! Has anyone ever heard someone complain afterwards? all right, the adaptation, but do I feel less belgian because I no longer pay with belgian franks? Would I feel less belgian (or flemish or whatever) when there would be living a chinese next door? Maybe she's pretty!


Now THERE's a good motivation! Long live pretty ladies! :lol:

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:No seriously, I understand that people feel threatened, but that's the fear of the unknown. It will disappear after a while. In the meanwhile we must try not to overreact.


Agreed!

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