Ave et Salve Gnæus!
Your post makes very much sense indeed. Personally I do support any attempt to get away from Universalism as much as possibly without remaining isolated in this world (this refers to your Globalism). Isolationism is hard in an inter-dependent world where autarky is practically impossible.
Regarding the ethnicity question. I try to talk to various people of different beliefs and these include some Folkish Asatruar (Folkish as they call themselves). I must say I very much agree with their vision regarding the ancestry and ethnicity question in relation to their faith, and I very much support them because they are religious reconstructionists and folkish preservationists at the same time and this makes for a combination that is highly alluring. But as you know they are not Universalistic and do not accept all so as a Southern European I cannot join them (even though I am blonde, lol), and even if I could I wouldn't because it is not really a part of my heritage. I feel more at home with my Roman brothers and sisters as I feel related by all accounts, after all Melita (Malta) was part of the Roman Empire (and I need to research that in a better way).
It was in fact these Germanic Heathens (they do not like to be called Pagans possibly to distance themselves from the Neo-Pagan croud) that made me discover your very interesting site. Mine was an attempt to see whether there was a similar group to the Asatruar in what was Roman Europa. Even though I am interested in all things related to Classical Roman Civilisation my main area of interest is Religion and Latin, I'll try and learn as much as possible though on what I consider the best Empire to ever exist in Europe (at least that is my opinion).
I do not know your views here, but please know that I'll post mine in a civilised manner, and where we disagree I don't bicker much, I have my opinion and I allow others to have theirs as is required for civil discussion. If we disagree, I'll agree to disagree.
Vale!
Politics, ethnicity and connections to the ancients
Moderator: Aldus Marius
23 posts • Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:43 pm
Salve Ultor,
We can most cordially disagree or have a civilised argument here. In fact I'd have to rack my mind to remember if there has ever been a nasty argument. Everyone is welcome to post their views and I certainly don't feel offended by yours
.
Ethnicity is a difficult topic to tackle for some people. With regards to me and my heritage it's pretty simple and can most likely be traced back to Frankish ancestors. However there are other cases too. Would the folkish Asatruar allow someone of mixed descent in their circles? With this I mean, for example, someone who has a Danish and a Russian parent. Or, for example, someone with a Dutch and a Chinese parent. Ethnicity is, in my opinion, a continuum in which it's hard to make clear definitions.
Note that I'm not accusing these people of racism, my criticism in this case also applies to nationalist movements that try to unify the People under their banner while defining what constitutes a people is a tough nut to crack.
With regards to your sentiments about the Roman Empire, I agree. The EU might do well to look at the Roman example in terms of organisation! I'm an optimist and I believe that one day Europe will again find itself united under a common cause or a common, strong leadership that respects both our uniqueness and our diversity, but we might not live to see that day. It's an encouraging thought however, that especially the internet has served to bring many European citizens together, and I must say that of many other Europeans I have met, most of them share these sentiments about a common goal and identity.
Okay, rant over
Vale bene!
Draco
We can most cordially disagree or have a civilised argument here. In fact I'd have to rack my mind to remember if there has ever been a nasty argument. Everyone is welcome to post their views and I certainly don't feel offended by yours
.
Ethnicity is a difficult topic to tackle for some people. With regards to me and my heritage it's pretty simple and can most likely be traced back to Frankish ancestors. However there are other cases too. Would the folkish Asatruar allow someone of mixed descent in their circles? With this I mean, for example, someone who has a Danish and a Russian parent. Or, for example, someone with a Dutch and a Chinese parent. Ethnicity is, in my opinion, a continuum in which it's hard to make clear definitions.
Note that I'm not accusing these people of racism, my criticism in this case also applies to nationalist movements that try to unify the People under their banner while defining what constitutes a people is a tough nut to crack.
With regards to your sentiments about the Roman Empire, I agree. The EU might do well to look at the Roman example in terms of organisation! I'm an optimist and I believe that one day Europe will again find itself united under a common cause or a common, strong leadership that respects both our uniqueness and our diversity, but we might not live to see that day. It's an encouraging thought however, that especially the internet has served to bring many European citizens together, and I must say that of many other Europeans I have met, most of them share these sentiments about a common goal and identity.
Okay, rant over
Vale bene!
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
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Gnaeus Dionysius Draco - Curialis
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by Anonymous on Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:08 pm
Salve Gnæus!
Well these "Folkish" groups to my knowledge would not accept someone that is of mixed ancestry. This applies mostly most probably to individuals that are of mixed Germanic and NON-European ancestry more so than anyone that is of mixed Germanic and non-Germanic European ancestry. The question is whether they find someone to be ethnically integrateable, and in the case of a Germanic-Chinese mix as you have described I don't think they would.
I will ask a friend of mine about this question, so I might be back with an answer from someone that is involved in the "Folk" (as he calls it). Obviously there are Asatru groups that are Universal, but personally I do not consider them real Germanic Heathens, and neither would a serious GERMANIC Heathen in my opinion, these Universal groups might as well create a Black Odin or a Mongoloid Thor if you get my point. The same could be said of the Religio Romana, all Gods appear to me as European because they were created by European peoples, and if they were depicted as otherwise I would feel offended as a European with a deep admiration of all things Classical Roman.
Regarding the European question, I very much agree, although I would not have any faith in the European Union, it is remote from the people, bureaucratic and anti-National or to use a better term anti-Folkish, moreover it is a strange blend of Leftist Political Ideals while serving mostly the Capitalist.
The case of Austria is a glaring example where the National will of the people is suppressed by the ideological and bureaucratic will of the European Union which showed essentially an anti-Democratic entity attacking the popular will of a sovereign Nation. And for what? Simply because the Austrian Freedom Party works for an Austrian Austria and is against mass non-European immigration, which in my opinion is an absolute prerequisite for National Self-Determination, which I very much support for every Nation of this World.
I'll admit it clearly from here that I support most Radical Right groups in Europe, though essentially I am not a Rightist in every term of the word (and not because I am left-handed, lol) because I am a somewhat Beyond Left and Right, Third Positionist type of person.
Sorry, this was off-topic, but it was just so that you know my views since I am new.
Vale!
Well these "Folkish" groups to my knowledge would not accept someone that is of mixed ancestry. This applies mostly most probably to individuals that are of mixed Germanic and NON-European ancestry more so than anyone that is of mixed Germanic and non-Germanic European ancestry. The question is whether they find someone to be ethnically integrateable, and in the case of a Germanic-Chinese mix as you have described I don't think they would.
I will ask a friend of mine about this question, so I might be back with an answer from someone that is involved in the "Folk" (as he calls it). Obviously there are Asatru groups that are Universal, but personally I do not consider them real Germanic Heathens, and neither would a serious GERMANIC Heathen in my opinion, these Universal groups might as well create a Black Odin or a Mongoloid Thor if you get my point. The same could be said of the Religio Romana, all Gods appear to me as European because they were created by European peoples, and if they were depicted as otherwise I would feel offended as a European with a deep admiration of all things Classical Roman.
Regarding the European question, I very much agree, although I would not have any faith in the European Union, it is remote from the people, bureaucratic and anti-National or to use a better term anti-Folkish, moreover it is a strange blend of Leftist Political Ideals while serving mostly the Capitalist.
The case of Austria is a glaring example where the National will of the people is suppressed by the ideological and bureaucratic will of the European Union which showed essentially an anti-Democratic entity attacking the popular will of a sovereign Nation. And for what? Simply because the Austrian Freedom Party works for an Austrian Austria and is against mass non-European immigration, which in my opinion is an absolute prerequisite for National Self-Determination, which I very much support for every Nation of this World.
I'll admit it clearly from here that I support most Radical Right groups in Europe, though essentially I am not a Rightist in every term of the word (and not because I am left-handed, lol) because I am a somewhat Beyond Left and Right, Third Positionist type of person.
Sorry, this was off-topic, but it was just so that you know my views since I am new.
Vale!
- Anonymous
by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:48 pm
Ave Ultor,
The vocative case of my name is Gnae
. You will get to know me as the relentless Latin Inquisition around here .
Well, it was a Greek poet-philosopher who once said that if cows could talk, their gods would look like cows. I wouldn't feel offended by a depiction of gods as black or Asian but in case of Germanic gods that would be a bit silly.
However, my thing with the ancestry is that it is, in my eyes, dangerous because of two reasons. The first one is that there is almost no individual in the world who doesn't have any mixed heritage. Even though I said earlier that my ancestry is Frankish there are people in my family with a French family name. Chances are slim, of course, that a Burmese German would look to join an Asatru group but still, I think it must be taken into consideration that no one is totally clear of mixed genetics. This brings me to my second, even more important gripe with these groups. I'm not accusing you or your friends of any of this, but with theories about heritage and ancestry, the path to racism is a very seductive one.
No one can deny that the EU is bureaucratic. However, there is currently no other institution that could assume this role. So I guess we'll just have to live with the next best alternative
.
Ah, but Austria is a different case. The FPÖ (the party you mean) has ex-Nazis in its membership, and Jörg Haider openly flirts with the National-Socialist era. This is more than, for example, the Radical Right party that's in power in Denmark. No one is protesting against Denmark and I agree that it's only sensible to have a good immigration policy. But not if its undercurrent is one that reeks of fascism. Many people simply don't know that the FPÖ is a neo-Nazi party. I have nothing against conservative people or people who hold right-wing beliefs, but I am firmly opposed to fascism, which is what the FPÖ really is.
Well, I think few people today can be categorised as Right or Left only.
Okay, since we have indeed strayed off topic, I'll move this to collegium philosophicum, where subjects like politics, ethnicity, etc etc, better belong.
Optime vale!
Draco
Mars Ultor wrote:Salve Gnæus!
The vocative case of my name is Gnae
. You will get to know me as the relentless Latin Inquisition around here .Mars Ultor wrote:Well these "Folkish" groups to my knowledge would not accept someone that is of mixed ancestry. This applies mostly most probably to individuals that are of mixed Germanic and NON-European ancestry more so than anyone that is of mixed Germanic and non-Germanic European ancestry. The question is whether they find someone to be ethnically integrateable, and in the case of a Germanic-Chinese mix as you have described I don't think they would.
I will ask a friend of mine about this question, so I might be back with an answer from someone that is involved in the "Folk" (as he calls it). Obviously there are Asatru groups that are Universal, but personally I do not consider them real Germanic Heathens, and neither would a serious GERMANIC Heathen in my opinion, these Universal groups might as well create a Black Odin or a Mongoloid Thor if you get my point. The same could be said of the Religio Romana, all Gods appear to me as European because they were created by European peoples, and if they were depicted as otherwise I would feel offended as a European with a deep admiration of all things Classical Roman.
Well, it was a Greek poet-philosopher who once said that if cows could talk, their gods would look like cows. I wouldn't feel offended by a depiction of gods as black or Asian but in case of Germanic gods that would be a bit silly.
However, my thing with the ancestry is that it is, in my eyes, dangerous because of two reasons. The first one is that there is almost no individual in the world who doesn't have any mixed heritage. Even though I said earlier that my ancestry is Frankish there are people in my family with a French family name. Chances are slim, of course, that a Burmese German would look to join an Asatru group but still, I think it must be taken into consideration that no one is totally clear of mixed genetics. This brings me to my second, even more important gripe with these groups. I'm not accusing you or your friends of any of this, but with theories about heritage and ancestry, the path to racism is a very seductive one.
Mars Ultor wrote:Regarding the European question, I very much agree, although I would not have any faith in the European Union, it is remote from the people, bureaucratic and anti-National or to use a better term anti-Folkish, moreover it is a strange blend of Leftist Political Ideals while serving mostly the Capitalist.
No one can deny that the EU is bureaucratic. However, there is currently no other institution that could assume this role. So I guess we'll just have to live with the next best alternative
.Mars Ultor wrote:The case of Austria is a glaring example where the National will of the people is suppressed by the ideological and bureaucratic will of the European Union which showed essentially an anti-Democratic entity attacking the popular will of a sovereign Nation. And for what? Simply because the Austrian Freedom Party works for an Austrian Austria and is against mass non-European immigration, which in my opinion is an absolute prerequisite for National Self-Determination, which I very much support for every Nation of this World.
Ah, but Austria is a different case. The FPÖ (the party you mean) has ex-Nazis in its membership, and Jörg Haider openly flirts with the National-Socialist era. This is more than, for example, the Radical Right party that's in power in Denmark. No one is protesting against Denmark and I agree that it's only sensible to have a good immigration policy. But not if its undercurrent is one that reeks of fascism. Many people simply don't know that the FPÖ is a neo-Nazi party. I have nothing against conservative people or people who hold right-wing beliefs, but I am firmly opposed to fascism, which is what the FPÖ really is.
Mars Ultor wrote:I'll admit it clearly from here that I support most Radical Right groups in Europe, though essentially I am not a Rightist in every term of the word (and not because I am left-handed, lol) because I am a somewhat Beyond Left and Right, Third Positionist type of person.
Well, I think few people today can be categorised as Right or Left only
.Mars Ultor wrote:Sorry, this was off-topic, but it was just so that you know my views since I am new.
Okay, since we have indeed strayed off topic, I'll move this to collegium philosophicum, where subjects like politics, ethnicity, etc etc, better belong.
Optime vale!
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
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by Anonymous on Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:06 pm
Ave et salve Gnæ! (I hope I got it right now)
I perfectly agree with you here regarding most of what you said.
I must say though that for any party with a Nationalist leaning in Germany and Austria not to have Nazi connections is quite hard. I mean Nazis were Nationalists (and Imperialists) and the time they existed and their institutions were in place is not so far off. Few people nowadays are actual Nazis (and I do not mean Neo-Nazis I mean Third Reich Nazis) but many people nowadays in Germany and Austria have probably Nazi relatives I mean National Socialism was quite big a few decades ago. This is not to make a point in defence of National Socialism or Nazism whatever way you seek to call it.
Jörg Haider had a Nazi father I suppose, do you expect him to hate his father for that? I certainly hope not, because if that was the case with everyone who had a Nazi father I think in Austria and Germany many persons would hate the people without whom their existance would not be possible! I certainly hope everyone has the possibility to love their fathers (I do love mine, but hey he can be annoying at times as well) with all the defects they might have.
I have to get more information regarding the Austrian Freedom Party, and I will start finding their website right now (I won't bother seeing other sites as most depict Radical Right groups as Neo-Nazis and Fascists without even knowing whatever that means but simply using to denigrate those groups), hopefully I can take a look at some manifesto or something like that.
Vale!
I perfectly agree with you here regarding most of what you said.
I must say though that for any party with a Nationalist leaning in Germany and Austria not to have Nazi connections is quite hard. I mean Nazis were Nationalists (and Imperialists) and the time they existed and their institutions were in place is not so far off. Few people nowadays are actual Nazis (and I do not mean Neo-Nazis I mean Third Reich Nazis) but many people nowadays in Germany and Austria have probably Nazi relatives I mean National Socialism was quite big a few decades ago. This is not to make a point in defence of National Socialism or Nazism whatever way you seek to call it.
Jörg Haider had a Nazi father I suppose, do you expect him to hate his father for that? I certainly hope not, because if that was the case with everyone who had a Nazi father I think in Austria and Germany many persons would hate the people without whom their existance would not be possible! I certainly hope everyone has the possibility to love their fathers (I do love mine, but hey he can be annoying at times as well) with all the defects they might have.
I have to get more information regarding the Austrian Freedom Party, and I will start finding their website right now (I won't bother seeing other sites as most depict Radical Right groups as Neo-Nazis and Fascists without even knowing whatever that means but simply using to denigrate those groups), hopefully I can take a look at some manifesto or something like that.
Vale!
- Anonymous
by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:59 pm
Ave Ultor,
Yes, you got that vocative correct.
To be completely honest, I don't know everything about the FPÖ. Judging however how thick they are with Vlaams Blok (our local - proven! - fascist party), I never thought highly of them.
In closing: one should not necessarily hate his countrymen for what they believe in. My grandparents voted for this Vlaams Blok, but that doesn't make them cease being my grandparents, or doesn't make their frustrations any less real. It's a complex situation.
Vale bene,
Draco
Yes, you got that vocative correct
.
To be completely honest, I don't know everything about the FPÖ. Judging however how thick they are with Vlaams Blok (our local - proven! - fascist party), I never thought highly of them.
In closing: one should not necessarily hate his countrymen for what they believe in. My grandparents voted for this Vlaams Blok, but that doesn't make them cease being my grandparents, or doesn't make their frustrations any less real. It's a complex situation.
Vale bene,
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
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by Anonymous on Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:30 pm
Ave et salve Draco!
I actually viewed the Vlaams Blok website a while ago after a Dutch Social Democrat person called them Fascists, so I wanted to see in what way was this Political Organisation a Fascist one.
In general I saw nothing wrong from their FAQ, they seem to be a Separatist Ethnic Nationalist group. I would support such groups (even though I might have the wrong impression) because they attempt to decentralise power in big states giving more autonomy to the people and achieving greater Self-Determination for distinct Ethnicities.
I personally see nothing wrong in this as Self-Determination is a right that should belong to every group, being it ethnic or national. Now I admit that I do not know much about the Vlaams Blok, so my opinion is a generalised one, but I am interested in what way they are Fascists.
And I also would like to know what do you intend by Fascist, to me it seems that you use it to associate the failures and historical defects of Fascism to modern Right-Wing Organisations in an attempt to incur a stigma on such Organisations. It is something done often by people on the Left and Politically Correct people to scandalise about and demonise a Political opponent. Generally I do not take such criticism seriously as I do not find it constructive to the modern Right, and if criticism is not constructive, it is worth nothing, obviously both sides have to make it constructive.
Fascism is indeed a Right-Wing Ideology (although I have met people that would argue otherwise) but that does not mean that all the Radical Right-Wing Organisations in Europe or the World are Fascists.
But anyways, this is something related to Politics or Modern Politics and not to Philosophy, and since I hate going off-topic and posting in the wrong sections, I really do not know if to continue this discussion. After all you do not have a Collegium Politicum (unless I have naively missed it).
Vale optime!
Lucius Aurelius Flavus.
I actually viewed the Vlaams Blok website a while ago after a Dutch Social Democrat person called them Fascists, so I wanted to see in what way was this Political Organisation a Fascist one.
In general I saw nothing wrong from their FAQ, they seem to be a Separatist Ethnic Nationalist group. I would support such groups (even though I might have the wrong impression) because they attempt to decentralise power in big states giving more autonomy to the people and achieving greater Self-Determination for distinct Ethnicities.
I personally see nothing wrong in this as Self-Determination is a right that should belong to every group, being it ethnic or national. Now I admit that I do not know much about the Vlaams Blok, so my opinion is a generalised one, but I am interested in what way they are Fascists.
And I also would like to know what do you intend by Fascist, to me it seems that you use it to associate the failures and historical defects of Fascism to modern Right-Wing Organisations in an attempt to incur a stigma on such Organisations. It is something done often by people on the Left and Politically Correct people to scandalise about and demonise a Political opponent. Generally I do not take such criticism seriously as I do not find it constructive to the modern Right, and if criticism is not constructive, it is worth nothing, obviously both sides have to make it constructive.
Fascism is indeed a Right-Wing Ideology (although I have met people that would argue otherwise) but that does not mean that all the Radical Right-Wing Organisations in Europe or the World are Fascists.
But anyways, this is something related to Politics or Modern Politics and not to Philosophy, and since I hate going off-topic and posting in the wrong sections, I really do not know if to continue this discussion. After all you do not have a Collegium Politicum (unless I have naively missed it).
Vale optime!
Lucius Aurelius Flavus.
- Anonymous
by Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:49 pm
Salve Flave
Vlaams Blok is bad for this country and i think that is obvious to most Belgians. Their ideas can not function in real life. They want to deport all non caucasian, non Belgians. Generations ago these people were invited to our nation to do the dirty work no one else wanted and if they are gone, nobody is going to do these jobs. That is one example. I can't remember all about them, but i do know that they are as bad as the Bush administration is for the USA. At least in my opinion. I can not speak for the other Belgians here. Personally i don't like organisations like Vlaams Blok, because they will slow down the process of Europe become on nation. After all, the end goal of the European Union is to form the United States of Europe, although that is something not for the near future.
Valete optime
Romulus
Vlaams Blok is bad for this country and i think that is obvious to most Belgians. Their ideas can not function in real life. They want to deport all non caucasian, non Belgians. Generations ago these people were invited to our nation to do the dirty work no one else wanted and if they are gone, nobody is going to do these jobs. That is one example. I can't remember all about them, but i do know that they are as bad as the Bush administration is for the USA. At least in my opinion. I can not speak for the other Belgians here. Personally i don't like organisations like Vlaams Blok, because they will slow down the process of Europe become on nation. After all, the end goal of the European Union is to form the United States of Europe, although that is something not for the near future.
Valete optime
Romulus
Quintus Aurelius Orcus
Rector ColRel
Rogator
Princeps gentis Aureliae
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by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:18 pm
Lucius Aurelius Flavus wrote:I actually viewed the Vlaams Blok website a while ago after a Dutch Social Democrat person called them Fascists, so I wanted to see in what way was this Political Organisation a Fascist one.
In general I saw nothing wrong from their FAQ, they seem to be a Separatist Ethnic Nationalist group. I would support such groups (even though I might have the wrong impression) because they attempt to decentralise power in big states giving more autonomy to the people and achieving greater Self-Determination for distinct Ethnicities.
I personally see nothing wrong in this as Self-Determination is a right that should belong to every group, being it ethnic or national. Now I admit that I do not know much about the Vlaams Blok, so my opinion is a generalised one, but I am interested in what way they are Fascists.
Grr, third attempt at a reply since my Internet Explorer crashed the previous two times.
Rule number one of European fascist parties is that they will never admit to it. The idea of fascism abhorrs many European voters because nearly all of us had relatives who died in WW2.
Vlaams Blok's leadership has a very, very shady past. One of their frontmen, Philippe Dewinter, used to write for a Neo-Nazi newpaper (that wrote laudatory articles on Hermann Göring, the SS Wiking Division and had swastikas in it). He further said that human rights are "false rights" and that his ethnic discourse is worth more than human rights. Their former leader was nominated "leader for life" and was a WW2 collaborator with the Germans. Many people don't know this.
Lucius Aurelius Flavus wrote:And I also would like to know what do you intend by Fascist, to me it seems that you use it to associate the failures and historical defects of Fascism to modern Right-Wing Organisations in an attempt to incur a stigma on such Organisations. It is something done often by people on the Left and Politically Correct people to scandalise about and demonise a Political opponent. Generally I do not take such criticism seriously as I do not find it constructive to the modern Right, and if criticism is not constructive, it is worth nothing, obviously both sides have to make it constructive.
I don't think all right wing parties are fascist parties. For example, another party here in Belgium, the NV-A, also strives for Flemish independence and is very conservative, but they are a normal democratic party. I don't have anything in particular against the NV-A.
Regarding fascism and nazism, I really do know what I'm talking about and I'll never use the term lightly to stigmatise a conservative person. I study German and the issue of "das Dritte Reich" is a pervasive one through recent German history and literature. There are some differences between nazism and "pure" fascism but in essence they are both reactionairy, ultra-nationalist movements that have totalitarian, anti-democratic principles. They do not tolerate dissent, usually hate minorities and would like to deprive women from their rights. The reason why such neo-fascist and neo-nazi parties are gaining ground across Europe is because their is a huge immigration problem all over Europe. Left-wing and centrist parties have denied that there even was a problem for years. That, and the fact that these new fascist groupings have very clever, populist ways of undermining any serious political discussion, have lead to spectacular successes such as in Belgium or France.
When they do come to power, they usually suffer a massive defeat afterwards, crumble apart or become more mainstream right-wing.
Lucius Aurelius Flavus wrote:Fascism is indeed a Right-Wing Ideology (although I have met people that would argue otherwise) but that does not mean that all the Radical Right-Wing Organisations in Europe or the World are Fascists.
But anyways, this is something related to Politics or Modern Politics and not to Philosophy, and since I hate going off-topic and posting in the wrong sections, I really do not know if to continue this discussion. After all you do not have a Collegium Politicum (unless I have naively missed it).
Nope, we don't have such a collegium, but politics can be respectfully discussed here
.
Vale,
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
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Gnaeus Dionysius Draco - Curialis
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by Anonymous on Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:23 pm
Ave et salve Romule! (Is that correct?)
The question of non-Europeans in Europe is indeed a problematic one. Groups that support the deportation of non-Europeans actually have my limited support (but I would support groups that deported Europeans from Africa or Asia for example). I am opposed to the current demographic chaos plaguing Europe due to past immigration and continuous current mass immigration both legal and illegal. I have heard from sources (I lost the links I was given) that already in certain areas of Europe native Europeans are a demographic minority, and that in my opinion is horrid. The thought of becoming a minority in my own land (and Malta is very limited where land is concerned) or in areas of it is unbearable, and should be unbearable to any European who has some rationality.
Yet you have highlighted a problem that is real, who will do the jobs the non-Europeans do? Unless higher-skilled Europeans resort to do those jobs out of lack of jobs related to their skills and qualifications (over-qualifications is indeed a problem in this regard) the non-Europeans must stay.
In my opinion the amount of non-Europeans should be reduced to a minimal amount that does not have a negative and displacing demographic connotation for ethnic Europeans.
I have heard from countless Nationalists all across Europe that many non-Europeans do not work at all (and I can testify that in Malta this is true as well, since I do not work either and I encounter non-Europeans where I go register for work every week, I am an IT Student still but I need a job to pay for my education till I get my Bachelor's degree unless my parents come up with the money required).
Such people must leave, it is already an unwanted thing to give social benefits to people of your own that are unproductive, we definitely should not give such a benefit to immigrants, all immigrants must work, after a time period passes where they are unemployed they shouldn't stay and be a burden on our economies and most of all they should not become homeless persons or persons that would resort to crime to finance themselves.
It is simple, you are not productive, you must leave, I find this rational and in this instance I would like to put any emotions aside for the sake of our own people (as Europeans) and "civilisation" (the quotes is because I do not value the modern Western world to high esteem, to me it reeks too much of nihilism, materialism, and consumerism, things I definitely despise).
Luckily not all non-European immigrants do not work, and that is a good thing. Although you would find countless greedy Capitalists that would employ them illegally and exploit their labour for a miserable pay, I know this it happens where I used to work in the past, that is unfair competition for the local worker, and plain and simple worker exploitation, I am not referring to this as a good thing, this is indeed a negative thing. I am not claiming that all non-European immigrants do not work (I have been attacked in the past due to this by people that use stereotypes for Radical Right people, therefore I am making myself clear), if that was so I would be much more radical and support the total deportation of all non-Europeans.
My point is simple, radical situations require radical solutions which could be unpopular, yet most of all the golden mean must be found in most situations.
Vale optime!
Lucius Aurelius Flavus.
The question of non-Europeans in Europe is indeed a problematic one. Groups that support the deportation of non-Europeans actually have my limited support (but I would support groups that deported Europeans from Africa or Asia for example). I am opposed to the current demographic chaos plaguing Europe due to past immigration and continuous current mass immigration both legal and illegal. I have heard from sources (I lost the links I was given) that already in certain areas of Europe native Europeans are a demographic minority, and that in my opinion is horrid. The thought of becoming a minority in my own land (and Malta is very limited where land is concerned) or in areas of it is unbearable, and should be unbearable to any European who has some rationality.
Yet you have highlighted a problem that is real, who will do the jobs the non-Europeans do? Unless higher-skilled Europeans resort to do those jobs out of lack of jobs related to their skills and qualifications (over-qualifications is indeed a problem in this regard) the non-Europeans must stay.
In my opinion the amount of non-Europeans should be reduced to a minimal amount that does not have a negative and displacing demographic connotation for ethnic Europeans.
I have heard from countless Nationalists all across Europe that many non-Europeans do not work at all (and I can testify that in Malta this is true as well, since I do not work either and I encounter non-Europeans where I go register for work every week, I am an IT Student still but I need a job to pay for my education till I get my Bachelor's degree unless my parents come up with the money required).
Such people must leave, it is already an unwanted thing to give social benefits to people of your own that are unproductive, we definitely should not give such a benefit to immigrants, all immigrants must work, after a time period passes where they are unemployed they shouldn't stay and be a burden on our economies and most of all they should not become homeless persons or persons that would resort to crime to finance themselves.
It is simple, you are not productive, you must leave, I find this rational and in this instance I would like to put any emotions aside for the sake of our own people (as Europeans) and "civilisation" (the quotes is because I do not value the modern Western world to high esteem, to me it reeks too much of nihilism, materialism, and consumerism, things I definitely despise).
Luckily not all non-European immigrants do not work, and that is a good thing. Although you would find countless greedy Capitalists that would employ them illegally and exploit their labour for a miserable pay, I know this it happens where I used to work in the past, that is unfair competition for the local worker, and plain and simple worker exploitation, I am not referring to this as a good thing, this is indeed a negative thing. I am not claiming that all non-European immigrants do not work (I have been attacked in the past due to this by people that use stereotypes for Radical Right people, therefore I am making myself clear), if that was so I would be much more radical and support the total deportation of all non-Europeans.
My point is simple, radical situations require radical solutions which could be unpopular, yet most of all the golden mean must be found in most situations.
Vale optime!
Lucius Aurelius Flavus.
- Anonymous
by Anonymous on Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:07 pm
Gnæus Dionysius Draco wrote:
Rule number one of European fascist parties is that they will never admit to it. The idea of fascism abhorrs many European voters because nearly all of us had relatives who died in WW2.
Many Maltese people died in WW2 as well due to British Colonialism and the Axis forces, but I would rather explore the ideologies involved rather than taking things personal. That is generally one of my characteristics and when it concerns broader subjects such as past grievances against my people rather than directly on my family I tend to try and give an objective look without taking personal damage into consideration. I am actually quite a forgiving person, which I am not sure whether it is a good trait or not. I still have to look to Fascism and National Socialism into greater detail, but unfortunately there is not much to read about those two apart from the WW2 stuff, so basically I had decided to leave them rot into the past.
Vlaams Blok's leadership has a very, very shady past. One of their frontmen, Philippe Dewinter, used to write for a Neo-Nazi newpaper (that wrote laudatory articles on Hermann Göring, the SS Wiking Division and had swastikas in it). He further said that human rights are "false rights" and that his ethnic discourse is worth more than human rights. Their former leader was nominated "leader for life" and was a WW2 collaborator with the Germans. Many people don't know this.
I do not know this at all. I hope that that frontmen has given away that aspect of his past. I believe that people should be allowed to change whatever their past.
I do not believe in human rights personally (but I do not know in what way that frontmen meant it). Rights are granted by the State and by Society itself, they can be taken away by such a State and they can be taken away by anyone else wielding more power and/or force than you. That is the sad reality. Rights are highly subjective and thus I do not believe in universal rights. Moreover rights in the Western World are different from rights in other areas of our planet because the people themselves are different, having different cultures, different values and different traditions, this affects theirs and ours conception of rights. Rights are meant to be fought for, you cannot sit on your couch and expect to have rights being granted to you.
I do not know what is meant by ethnic discourse.
I don't think all right wing parties are fascist parties. For example, another party here in Belgium, the NV-A, also strives for Flemish independence and is very conservative, but they are a normal democratic party. I don't have anything in particular against the NV-A.
That is indeed good to know.
Regarding fascism and nazism, I really do know what I'm talking about and I'll never use the term lightly to stigmatise a conservative person. I study German and the issue of "das Dritte Reich" is a pervasive one through recent German history and literature. There are some differences between nazism and "pure" fascism but in essence they are both reactionairy, ultra-nationalist movements that have totalitarian, anti-democratic principles. They do not tolerate dissent, usually hate minorities and would like to deprive women from their rights.
I do not know what you mean by reactionary, but I think the rest is correct. I also do not know about women being deprived of their rights either.
The reason why such neo-fascist and neo-nazi parties are gaining ground across Europe is because their is a huge immigration problem all over Europe.
That is quite true, I expect such parties to gain more ground to tell you the truth.
Left-wing and centrist parties have denied that there even was a problem for years. That, and the fact that these new fascist groupings have very clever, populist ways of undermining any serious political discussion, have lead to spectacular successes such as in Belgium or France.
Left-Wing and Centrist Parties not only do not see the problem, they use the problem for their interests, in order to gain votes and mantain their system. Yet I do not see these "Fascist" groupings gaining much success. I see the Left and Centrist Organisations as of detriment to Europe, and I see the Right-Wing lacking an ideology and without an all-encompassing political platform. Basically the Right-Wing attracts those that are disgruntled by the current order of things in regards to the Immigration question and other questions such as Conservatism/Liberalism.
In France their is a meta-political group called the French New Right which seem to have quite good ideas but they are only a think-tank and are not involved in the Democratic Political System. I once read a sort of manifesto at a message board I will try and find it and if you want it I could forward it to you.
When they do come to power, they usually suffer a massive defeat afterwards, crumble apart or become more mainstream right-wing.
That is because they are not revolutionaries and I think that some sort of Social Revolution is required in Europe and the whole Western World. For this to happen a successful group might need to function from the inside of the System and from the outside of the System. Perhaps we could start a Revolutionary group and establish a Neo-Roman Imperium across Europe, lol.
The Right-Wing groups you mentioned are Populists, and as I said that they do not appear to have a valid political platform. I believe that in the next 50 years major turmoil might hit Europe and that will probably be a result of events that happen now and in the post-WW2 past.
Vale optime!
Lucius Aurelius Flavus.
- Anonymous
by Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:39 am
Salve Flave
Well you made some good points. Unfortanatly some of the immigrants here in Belgium do not work either. The more they have, they more oney they get. Those people should be deported, not the ones who do work for their money. I think it is in everybody's interest that Turkey joins the EU so that it can prosper and the Turks are not required to ove somewhere else to find prosperity.
vale
Romulus
Well you made some good points. Unfortanatly some of the immigrants here in Belgium do not work either. The more they have, they more oney they get. Those people should be deported, not the ones who do work for their money. I think it is in everybody's interest that Turkey joins the EU so that it can prosper and the Turks are not required to ove somewhere else to find prosperity.
vale
Romulus
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by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:55 am
Salvete!
Just a friendly note in my capacity as aedilis; I hope we can now move on to more on-topic posts or leave this digression as it is. For real off-topic stuff, you can always go to the general forum. BTW be sure to check out the upcoming ludi Romani!!!!!
Valete bene,
Draco
Just a friendly note in my capacity as aedilis; I hope we can now move on to more on-topic posts or leave this digression as it is. For real off-topic stuff, you can always go to the general forum
. BTW be sure to check out the upcoming ludi Romani!!!!!
Valete bene,
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
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by Primus Aurelius Timavus on Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:36 pm
Just a few observations from an outsider:
1. Thanks for the enlightening, albeit off-topic, discussion.
2. Here in the US we support Turkey's entry into the EU (that is, those of us who know what "Turkey" and "EU" mean do!) The simple reason is that since the time of Ataturk, Turkey has always oriented itself towards the West. We do not want it to become disappointed after repeated rebuffs from the EU and reconsider this alignment. Imagine an Islamist Turkey! Or worse an Islamic Revolutionary Turkey as in Iran. Turkey is a huge, powerful country that has been a faithful ally of the US and NATO since 1948. Let's keep it that way.
3. Our Constitution and political thought hold that rights are not granted by the State. They are recognized by the State. In other words, they existed before our government and will exist when our government is no longer.
4. As a frequent traveler to Europe, I like the EU. The adoption of the Euro and the Schengen agreement make visiting the continent so much more convenient and pleasant. I am also a dual US-EU citizen (Italy). I can now live and work freely anywhere that I want in the Union. I have already used this when I went to study business in London for a year. Soon I will move back to Europe, and I had the chance to decide where I would live. Spain, Cyprus, and Malta were all viable choices, because of language considerations and thanks to the EU (we will in fact be moving to Italy). When my children grow up, they will be able to study freely at any European university. Long live the EU!
Tergestus
1. Thanks for the enlightening, albeit off-topic, discussion.
2. Here in the US we support Turkey's entry into the EU (that is, those of us who know what "Turkey" and "EU" mean do!) The simple reason is that since the time of Ataturk, Turkey has always oriented itself towards the West. We do not want it to become disappointed after repeated rebuffs from the EU and reconsider this alignment. Imagine an Islamist Turkey! Or worse an Islamic Revolutionary Turkey as in Iran. Turkey is a huge, powerful country that has been a faithful ally of the US and NATO since 1948. Let's keep it that way.
3. Our Constitution and political thought hold that rights are not granted by the State. They are recognized by the State. In other words, they existed before our government and will exist when our government is no longer.
4. As a frequent traveler to Europe, I like the EU. The adoption of the Euro and the Schengen agreement make visiting the continent so much more convenient and pleasant. I am also a dual US-EU citizen (Italy). I can now live and work freely anywhere that I want in the Union. I have already used this when I went to study business in London for a year. Soon I will move back to Europe, and I had the chance to decide where I would live. Spain, Cyprus, and Malta were all viable choices, because of language considerations and thanks to the EU (we will in fact be moving to Italy). When my children grow up, they will be able to study freely at any European university. Long live the EU!
Tergestus
Primus Aurelius Timavus
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by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:49 pm
Salve Tergeste!
I agree. I also favour a Europe that includes Turkey. Not only did Atatürk gave his country a Western impulse, in fact Turkey has always belonged more to Europe than most other countries from the Middle East. Before WW1 it controlled large parts of the Balkan and even before that time Byzantium and before that Ionia were places of great civilisation, art and architecture. People like Herodotos, Herakleitos, Iustinianus, etc etc came from these parts. The main opposing factor to Turkey has always been Greece, but that rivalry is also changing. Both countries exchanged a lot of symbolical gestures during great natural disasters. I have always considered that as an important sign.
Optime vale!
Draco
Primus Aurelius Tergestus wrote:2. Here in the US we support Turkey's entry into the EU (that is, those of us who know what "Turkey" and "EU" mean do!) The simple reason is that since the time of Ataturk, Turkey has always oriented itself towards the West. We do not want it to become disappointed after repeated rebuffs from the EU and reconsider this alignment. Imagine an Islamist Turkey! Or worse an Islamic Revolutionary Turkey as in Iran. Turkey is a huge, powerful country that has been a faithful ally of the US and NATO since 1948. Let's keep it that way.
I agree. I also favour a Europe that includes Turkey. Not only did Atatürk gave his country a Western impulse, in fact Turkey has always belonged more to Europe than most other countries from the Middle East. Before WW1 it controlled large parts of the Balkan and even before that time Byzantium and before that Ionia were places of great civilisation, art and architecture. People like Herodotos, Herakleitos, Iustinianus, etc etc came from these parts. The main opposing factor to Turkey has always been Greece, but that rivalry is also changing. Both countries exchanged a lot of symbolical gestures during great natural disasters. I have always considered that as an important sign.
Optime vale!
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
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by Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:48 am
Salvete
I agree, Turkey should become a member of the EU. It could benefit the country as the rest of Europe so that the Turks wouldn't move to the west to find prosperity when they can find it in their own country. Don't get me wrong, i'm not a rascist, but the truth is that most immigrants that come to the west are looking for prosperity and beter lives. When most of East Europe and Turkey becomes part of the EU this could slow down the immigration and emigration.
valete optime
Romulus
I agree, Turkey should become a member of the EU. It could benefit the country as the rest of Europe so that the Turks wouldn't move to the west to find prosperity when they can find it in their own country. Don't get me wrong, i'm not a rascist, but the truth is that most immigrants that come to the west are looking for prosperity and beter lives. When most of East Europe and Turkey becomes part of the EU this could slow down the immigration and emigration.
valete optime
Romulus
Quintus Aurelius Orcus
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by Anonymous on Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:33 pm
Salvete!
I agree with Romulus, he has a point about the migration, few people migrate for the sake of it and new experiences (I plan to do that after my degree though). I am opposed to current immigration flows into Europe from the non-European world, and that is one of the reasons I support the development of the disadvantaged (if that would be a correct term) world.
Valete optime!
I agree with Romulus, he has a point about the migration, few people migrate for the sake of it and new experiences (I plan to do that after my degree though). I am opposed to current immigration flows into Europe from the non-European world, and that is one of the reasons I support the development of the disadvantaged (if that would be a correct term) world.
Valete optime!
- Anonymous
by Horatius Piscinus on Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:23 am
Salvete
I do not see why anyone in Europe, or the US for that matter, would oppose immigration when is immigration that has made both places. Where after all did the modern Europeans come from, you Western Germans, and Eastern Germans, Franks, Hungarians, Celts before them, the Greeks earlier, and the Italiac tribes aroung the same time, and much earlier still were others roaming about, and earlier still with the receding icecaps, and earlier stilll Neantherdals did not spring up out European soils either. With migration came other things as well, like agriculture, metallurgy, domesticate animals to lay on our tables. The currency of people, technology, and new ideas was not flowing in just one direction either. Nor has the flow ever stopped, so there is really no such thing, nor was there ever, any pure ethnic or national group, and if there were then the legions of Caesar and of Alaric and of Napoleon, and so forth, eliminated such isolated pure bloods long ago.
In the US there are those who oppose immigration, too, which seems like a contradiction unless you are a real native American, an Amerindian rather than someone whose ancestors got off a boat. And even then your Amerindian ancestors got here by some means at some point in time, and I never met any Amerindian who was not part something else. Then too look at all the great cities that have existed in time - Alexandria, Rome, Bagdad, Toledo, Venice, Paris, Vienna, or New York today. ALL cosmopolitan cities, meaning they all had the most diverse populations. Diversity of population, diversity of culture, diversity of ideas is what makes great cities and great civilizations. Europe, and the US, would make the gravest error if they ever tried to stop immigration.
Valete optime
I do not see why anyone in Europe, or the US for that matter, would oppose immigration when is immigration that has made both places. Where after all did the modern Europeans come from, you Western Germans, and Eastern Germans, Franks, Hungarians, Celts before them, the Greeks earlier, and the Italiac tribes aroung the same time, and much earlier still were others roaming about, and earlier still with the receding icecaps, and earlier stilll Neantherdals did not spring up out European soils either. With migration came other things as well, like agriculture, metallurgy, domesticate animals to lay on our tables. The currency of people, technology, and new ideas was not flowing in just one direction either. Nor has the flow ever stopped, so there is really no such thing, nor was there ever, any pure ethnic or national group, and if there were then the legions of Caesar and of Alaric and of Napoleon, and so forth, eliminated such isolated pure bloods long ago.
In the US there are those who oppose immigration, too, which seems like a contradiction unless you are a real native American, an Amerindian rather than someone whose ancestors got off a boat. And even then your Amerindian ancestors got here by some means at some point in time, and I never met any Amerindian who was not part something else. Then too look at all the great cities that have existed in time - Alexandria, Rome, Bagdad, Toledo, Venice, Paris, Vienna, or New York today. ALL cosmopolitan cities, meaning they all had the most diverse populations. Diversity of population, diversity of culture, diversity of ideas is what makes great cities and great civilizations. Europe, and the US, would make the gravest error if they ever tried to stop immigration.
Valete optime
M Horatius Piscinus
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by Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:07 pm
I agree with all of what you say Piscine, but there is one problem that sets modern Europe a part from ancient Europe (tribes, Roman and Greek empire, Middle Ages, Renaissance up until the 19th century). Europe, as it is right now, is becoming overpopulated. There are about 330 people per square kilometre in Belgium. Belgium spans about 31 000 square kilometres, which makes it four times as small as Ireland, yet Ireland has a population of 4 million people whereas Belgium has 10 million. We are simply running out of space.
Or, to give you a global idea: the Roman Empire, at its height, is estimated to have had at most 50 million inhabitants (I don't remember where I got this figure). The present-day area where the Roman empire now was is populated by more than seven times that amount of people. And they all need to be fed, educated, paid, etc etc.
Also note that many people who oppose immigration don't oppose immigration per se. They usually think better solutions are to actively aid developing countries so their inhabitants wouldn't feel the need to flee to Europe (or the US). Of course, there are those who think cultural diversity is the downfall of society but they obviously haven't learnt their history well. So my main point against immigration is of practical rather than emotional nature.
Vale bene!
Draco
Or, to give you a global idea: the Roman Empire, at its height, is estimated to have had at most 50 million inhabitants (I don't remember where I got this figure). The present-day area where the Roman empire now was is populated by more than seven times that amount of people. And they all need to be fed, educated, paid, etc etc.
Also note that many people who oppose immigration don't oppose immigration per se. They usually think better solutions are to actively aid developing countries so their inhabitants wouldn't feel the need to flee to Europe (or the US). Of course, there are those who think cultural diversity is the downfall of society but they obviously haven't learnt their history well. So my main point against immigration is of practical rather than emotional nature.
Vale bene!
Draco
Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
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by Anonymous on Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:55 pm
Salvete!
Encouraging Immigration is not an encouraging development in the modern Western World. You people seem to forget that it is the people that create the nation and the culture, and the people of the Western world, the originators of such cultures are European peoples.
Eventually migrations will impact European culture along with their societies, migrations could lead to the decline of a civilisation as well as its "improvement", and frankly I do not see much civilisation coming recently from Third World migrations.
I believe we should mantain our cultural identity free from non-European influence (and possibly allow our National and Regional cultures to develop freely without much interference, that would create real diversity), that would be a real celebration of diversity in our world and not immigration, let each people have their own space in this restricted world, and let each people determine their future as independently as possible.
The preachers of diversity do not allow this, in fact they are the main destroyers of diversity, what is being created is a mumbo-jumbo of a Europe, instead of a Europe based on the European peoples. Frankly I care about other cultures as long as they are on their own, and not intermingled with ours, because that would preserve both cultures and allow the independent and free development of both. Wouldn't you want to travel to places and see vibrant cultures with proud people loving their cultures instead of a mass confusion of cultures in one restricted place?
Immigration is partly creating a mass homogenised consumerist, materialist, and individualist culture which is signalling the decline of the West. After all, what is of cultural importance nowadays? Cultural genius seems to be a quality sorely lacking in the modern Western World.
And please tell me which native people would freely allow themselves to be displaced in their own lands? Frankly that is suicide for the people, and a sad reflection of modern Europe. Neighbourhoods, towns and cities in Europe will in the future be in the hands of non-Europeans. A sad reflection of this is what a Danish friend of mine told me about certain neighbourhoods in Copenhagen which are controlled by Arabs and Muslims and possibly other non-Europeans, areas where native people do not even dare thread, areas which the native people saw themselves being taken away by these immigrants who are apparently not-so-peaceful and civilised. When hearing such things I wonder were certain people get their idea of cultural richness through immigration of non-Europeans. This is certainly something I would not want for my own country.
Valete!
Lucius Aurelius Flavus.
Encouraging Immigration is not an encouraging development in the modern Western World. You people seem to forget that it is the people that create the nation and the culture, and the people of the Western world, the originators of such cultures are European peoples.
Eventually migrations will impact European culture along with their societies, migrations could lead to the decline of a civilisation as well as its "improvement", and frankly I do not see much civilisation coming recently from Third World migrations.
I believe we should mantain our cultural identity free from non-European influence (and possibly allow our National and Regional cultures to develop freely without much interference, that would create real diversity), that would be a real celebration of diversity in our world and not immigration, let each people have their own space in this restricted world, and let each people determine their future as independently as possible.
The preachers of diversity do not allow this, in fact they are the main destroyers of diversity, what is being created is a mumbo-jumbo of a Europe, instead of a Europe based on the European peoples. Frankly I care about other cultures as long as they are on their own, and not intermingled with ours, because that would preserve both cultures and allow the independent and free development of both. Wouldn't you want to travel to places and see vibrant cultures with proud people loving their cultures instead of a mass confusion of cultures in one restricted place?
Immigration is partly creating a mass homogenised consumerist, materialist, and individualist culture which is signalling the decline of the West. After all, what is of cultural importance nowadays? Cultural genius seems to be a quality sorely lacking in the modern Western World.
And please tell me which native people would freely allow themselves to be displaced in their own lands? Frankly that is suicide for the people, and a sad reflection of modern Europe. Neighbourhoods, towns and cities in Europe will in the future be in the hands of non-Europeans. A sad reflection of this is what a Danish friend of mine told me about certain neighbourhoods in Copenhagen which are controlled by Arabs and Muslims and possibly other non-Europeans, areas where native people do not even dare thread, areas which the native people saw themselves being taken away by these immigrants who are apparently not-so-peaceful and civilised. When hearing such things I wonder were certain people get their idea of cultural richness through immigration of non-Europeans. This is certainly something I would not want for my own country.
Valete!
Lucius Aurelius Flavus.
- Anonymous
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