Symposium Philosophicum IV

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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:39 pm

I thought about something special for our next topic. I came up with something that seems trivial, but it can say something about the heart of the philosophy you're defending.

I look forward on this because this discussion will be quite 'technical', I mean that it will be about the core of different philosophies.

The order of speaking (I added Coruncianus and Atticus):
1. Draco
2. Atticus (eclectic)
3. Marcus Horatius
4. Coruncianus (which philosophy will you defend?)
5. Locatus
6. Curio
7. Romulus

And the (trivial) question is: "Which pet would you take? A cat or a dog? And why?"
The discussion starts Tuesday.

Oh boy, I'm really going to like this one!
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:00 pm

Quintus Pomponius Atticus wrote:I must contradict you. Though it is bon ton today to profess being an agnostic, and to refrain from questioning religion under the banner of equality and cultural relativism, a lot of religious statements càn be scientifically falsified (the claim that the world is only 6000 years old, Methusalem attaining the age of 969 years, miracles - half the New Testament is filled with them - etc. etc.) or at least 'forced into retreat'.

By that last I mean e.g. that we can, by pointing at clear evidence, prove that at least the bearing of a certain religious claim is limited. E.g., we cannot prove that God does not exist, but we càn come up with a lot of facts that invalidate the image religions portray of him.


That's why I said "most of what..." and not "all of...".

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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:10 pm

We're talking about philosophy here, thus things are hard to prove... That's why it is so interesting on this symposium! I really, really love these discussions! Because I'm right, of course :wink: :lol: .
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:11 pm

Salve Locate!

I must disagree with you one last time, amice!

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:It is hard to realize we have won, isn't it?

I haven't explained my point for individuals. I look around me on this planet and what I see is that humans are anywhere, that animals are in danger, that we can destroy this planet with weapons, that we are trying to colonize other planets, ... . Face it, the human race as won. It's as simple as that.


We haven't won. We are at the top of the food chain NOW but this may change entirely in a century. What if a chain of meteorites crashes onto the northern hemisphere? Then it MAY matter whether Europe has 300 million inhabitants or just one less. If we can destroy our planet, I consider this is a threat, not a sign of victory. And we're definitely not trying to colonise other planets. We haven't even been on Mars. Most politicians don't consider this goals that will appeal to the people. Plus, even if no cataclysms occur, the Sun will still make it impossible for us to live here within 1 billion years (it won't die yet but the heat will become too intense because the Sun keeps getting brighter; most people don't realise that).

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:Religion indeed can give our life a meaning. But Religion is something we invented ourselves, so this meaning will be a fake one.


All meanings are fake. And damn good they are. If my life was dictated by one meaning and I knew what it was, that would be horrible. To only have one purpose. Brrr...

Q. C. Locatus Barbatus wrote:
Draco wrote:So do we NEED religion? NO, we don't need religion. But can it be useful? Yes, it can. Like any tool can be useful if they are used for the right reasons and by the right people.

This is what we call in Belgium the 'CD&V-syndroom'. No matter what you think, it's always right!


I didn't say that. I left the question unanswered of what is "right reason" but if there is a right reason, there must be a wrong reason as well.

Vale bene!
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:24 pm

What quick reactions! We're definitly improving our activity-ratings here :lol: .

Draco wrote:We are at the top of the food chain NOW but this may change entirely in a century. What if a chain of meteorites crashes onto the northern hemisphere?

indeed:
myself wrote:This makes my theory less deterministic than you would think at a quick first view. We are free now to do with our time what we want, but the day that a asteroid whipes out 99% of the people, humans will go back to the struggle for life, no more 'solidarnosk', no more love, no more pacemakers, but egoïstic fighting for a pray someone else catched.

It is visible in times of economical crisises (as there is now): less money to the unemployed, the handicapped, etc. (So I see it as my duty to ensure our wealth.) Only when we have too much, we will be thinking of solidarity.
We, indeed for now, have won. Enjoy the victory while it lasts!
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:19 pm

Draco, we're awaiting your speech!
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Postby Curio Agelastus on Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:02 am

Locate, I think you should go first, it seems the rest of us are too confused with this question. :shock:

Or is that just me?

At the back with a quarterstaff in one hand and a drink in the other is...
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:05 pm

All right, then skip me later.

I would definitely go for a cat. Why not a dog:
We, as human beings, have trained our dogs for a long time. A dog has to sit when we tell them so, has to apport you newspaper and even has to shut up when asked. A dog is no longer natural. It has been shaped into a tool by us.

A cat was harder to train, a cat shows more own will than a dog. Although a (pet) cat does need us for collecting its food, it still has its wild edges. When I tell my cat to apport my newspaper, she just winks her eyes in a way "you really do not think I will obbey you?".

A cat is a master in manipulating humans. She has adapted in such a way that she has becomed the real 'master'. She knows how to corrupt people to get what she wants. And she does it in such a way that it is not clearly visible.

A cat will survive on the streets, a dog would die. A cat has not been changed too much by us, dogs have been created by the human beings. A cat is close to nature. A dog is a tool.
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:32 pm

Locate,
i will save my comments for later when ts my time to speech. In the mean time, the question that comes back to haunt me for now is: where is Draco?
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:20 am

[rises from the bed amidst a flock of attractive young women and men and begins speaking in a booming voice] Cease being haunted, Romule, for I have returned!

I was just a little busy.

Now; as to animals. My favourite pet would be cat, although not for the exact same reasons as Locatus'. I think a cat's self-sufficience is not only admirable but also very easy. I don't put down dogs or dog owners. Dogs are simply group animals whose behaviour pattern is radically different from cats. Cats are solitary wanderers who may occasionally hook up with or become attached to strangers. I like the randomness of a cat but I don't confuse it with free will. Like our friend Atticus once said, animals usually more or less behave on autopilot.

I think a cat is also an aesthetic animal, much like all felines. Not fat, overfed cats, obviously, neither the starving ones in the dumps but a clean, healthy housecat. I just like having cats around. They're not terribly noisy and mind their own business but they're out there if you want them or need them. A bit like a good acquaintance or an ideal family member ;).

Thank you. That was all.

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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:52 pm

All right, coruncianus, you're in! :wink:

I repeat the order of speech:
1. Draco
2. Atticus (eclectic)
3. Marcus Horatius
4. Coruncianus (which philosophy will you defend?)
5. Locatus
6. Curio
7. Romulus


I have been moved to the front, Draco has been, we're waiting for atticus now!
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:02 pm

Salvete omnes,

In this discussion I am taking the Middle-Academy point of view, i.e. I will speak as a Platonic sceptic.

As our revered master Plato already showed in his early dialogues, endless discussions can be held on certain subjects, without the participants achieving a satisfying answer to their question.

Consequently elaborating this, his successor Arcesilaus asserted that by arguing for and against every position that came up in discussion, he could present equally weighty reasons on both sides of the issue and make it easier to accept neither side.

Responding to the Stoc objection that if we were to suspend judgment regarding everything, we would not be able to continue to engage in day to day activities, he advanced his practical criterion of judgment, “to eulogon”.

By this, he wished to say that we should examine every single issue in its own specific context and that we should bear in mind all determining factors of the topic we are investigating. As for the specific question of this symposion, whether one should prefer to keep a cat or a dog, a sceptic such as myself would fire back a whole set of questions to help you to find a satisfactory solution.

Are you homelike person ? If so, you may want to prefer a cat. Do you like long walks ? If so, you might like having a dog to accompany you. Do you almost get crazy when your pet has dirty legs, or when you find hair everywhere around the house ? In the first case, a dog is probably not the right pet for you, in the second case, I wouldn’t take a long-haired cat. Ask yourself these questions, and similar ones, and I trust you will find the right answer.

Valete,

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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:53 pm

Marcus motions to rise to the question and Marius gathers up his furry friends into his lap, knowing Marcus' dietary preferences when it comes to dogs. But Marcus does no more than prop himself up slightly more than before.

"No animals," wrote Varro, "come within the province of agriculture save those which can help the soil to greater fertility by their labor." Now if I apply the same judgement to a household, how can any pet contribute to a household save those which might better serve as my supper? If then you ask my preference, a cat or a dog, then all that interests me is whether it has been properly prepared. I prefer my dog prepared in Szechuan style, although the dog I ate in Mexico with salsa was good as well. As for cat, they are difficult to prepare and have much too stringy a meat to be savory. Assign a cat to "the province of agriculture," for a cat is fit for nothing other than to "help the soil to greater fertility" by burying it.

Do not misconstrue my meaning. I greatly enjoy all animals, even some of the more obnoxious, but only in their natural habitat. I am of a firm conviction that no animals should be kept in cages or any other unnatural enviroment, including someone's house. I enjoy animals visiting me on my land, outdoors, and will leave food out for any bird or fish that should venture onto my property, or deer, rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, and any assortment of other creatures. But as for what I allow in my house, the only animals you will ever find are those I serve as supper.
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OT: Now That You Mention It...

Postby Aldus Marius on Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:30 am

[Marius does not know if the listeners at the Symposium are allowed to ask questions or make comments. But surely a stray thought will bother no one and hinder no thing. He spares one, then, for the little dogs in his lap...

[The most noticeable thing about them, to himself as to his friends, is that there are only two of them. The old Greyhound died in November; and just this last month the Cattle Dog mix got lost far enough away that the chances of his seeing her again are, at best, remote.

[He thinks about the hazards she faces, the distance she must come. He knows it's been done; he also knows that such returns are rare enough to be newsworthy. More likely is that she has been taken in by some kind soul...or that she lies, mangled, by some roadside.

[He is still reeling from the blows. He has lost half his pack in a mere 60 days. All he has left, in his whole little world, are the Terrier and toy Spaniel on his lap.

[He cannot vouch for their suitability for agriculture or anything else. He only knows that, if he himself is ever to return to full productivity, or even mere functionality, he will not be able to do it without their assistance...or the kindness of his two-legged friends.]

In magna tristia,
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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:26 pm

organisations like Gaia say tha it is wrong to have pets, to lock them up in our homes. The reality is tha we have been doing this for several thousands of years and hese guys want to put a stop to it? Good luck. Ofcourse the pets i'm talkig of are the most common ones: cats, dogs. Exotic animals should not be bought as pets, but people do it anyway.
Gaia (a Belgian animal rights organisationà say that it is wrong and that the animals suffer from it. It is true that people abuse their pets, i have heard reports of people burning cats alive somewhere in the netherlands and Belgium. Cats and dogs ae abandend in the world on a daily basis i guess. Especially when there is a vacation some folks tie up their dog to a pole along the highway and drive of leaving the dog to die. Dogs, mans best friend for thousands of years. Cats are predators who hunt. Dogs can also hunt but are most of the time scavengers. That is one of the reasons they live so closely to humans. Humans found in dogs a friend and a guardian against any threat. Dogs hear, smell and see beter than humans. I don't have a problem with cats nor with dogs. I've had a cat once, but it seemd that in my early days i was some kind of a pet abuser. Now i'm a person who loves animals. I have had two dogs, one died of epilepsy because sme stupid vet got her shots mixed up. My dog suffered alot ver he years because of his disease ad i was devastated the day my mother took him t the vet to give him the fatal shot because his illnes couldn't be cured.
What i'm trying to say is that dogs and cats are ordinary and he most common pets who should be treated like friends because they give alot of love and companionship without asking much in return. Beating, burning alive, eating animals does not what these beloved creatures deserve. We live in a capitalistic society that tends to massproduct something when profit can be made from it. What if animals like cats and dogs are killed of by the thousands just for an exotic meal. It already happens. If you eat an animal dogs or cats) for survival reasons because food is scarce, you will not hear my object so fast to it even though i'm disgusted by it. But if you eat it because you think of it as a desert or exotic meal when you have the money to buy decent food, that is truly dispickable. I know it sounds preechy, but stay with me; i'm ging somewhere with this.
ofcourse we would like to see animas in their habitat, but with the decreasing of wildlife and natural habitats for these animals everywhere, this is unlikely to be so. If we like it or not, we have to live with cats and dogs because they are here and aren't going anywhere.
A dog is certainly not a tool, but a companion like a cat is. Animals are in a way like humans. They have charactersthat define them. For example my current dog. Its a havanezer, it gives much affection but wants affection in return. Listening is not one of his virtues, but than again he's scared of anything he doesn't know. So he will not run away from my house, he will be curious but in the end he wants to stay home where he's fed on a daily basis and i can't imagine my dog living in the streets living o who knows what. We humans tend to look at animals and think that we are somewhat superiour because our brain is different and bigger than that of most animals. Animals are like us. They have personalities, characters, maybe mood-swings, they reproduce, they eat, they sleep. This isn't so different from us. We do these things to and more.
Animals should be treated as equals, not as inferiour creatures.
Well that's enough for me now.
thanks fo listening, i know it was somehow preechy.
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Postby Curio Agelastus on Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:50 am

Coruncianus, your turn, I believe.

**A polite buzz from a Curio who fears that he will forget his own speech if made to wait much longer* 8)

Bene vale,
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Postby Curio Agelastus on Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:34 am

Salvete omnes,

**Curio remains seated for a while after Coruncanius' offering, deep in thought. Eventually he rises, and begins to speak.**

This is a difficult topic to speak about, if for no other reason than it is difficult to ascertain its relevance to a philosophical symposium, although I mean no offense, mi Locate.

A cat, or a dog? Hmm... well it seems like most of the good arguments have already been used, so there is little I can add. I personally prefer cats to dogs, partly for the reasons mentioned, that they are more independent than dogs, and also that they have not been broken in to the extent that dogs have. However, if a person is the kind who would enjoy the company of a dog more, enjoy taking them for walks, then clearly a dog would be preferable to a cat.

What Piscinus mentioned about not liking domestic creatures at all, but professing a great liking for wild animals is entirely understandable. However, it should be pointed out that we are the ones who broke and domesticated some animals - we cannot cast them aside now because they are domesticated. For this reason, I believe that we should certainly not make attempts to domesticate any more wild animals. But the past cannot be undone.

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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:49 pm

All right, everyone has spoken! Comment anyone?
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:51 pm

No comment?

Our third and last topic will start on monday. The question is:

Is capital punishment allowed?

The order of speech:

1. Coruncianus
2. Curio
3. Atticus
4. Draco
5. Romulus
6. Marcus Horatius
7. Locatus

Prepare for battle!! :twisted:

Valete!

Locatus, der Barbatus.
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Postby Q. C. Locatus Barbatus on Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:28 pm

That is what I mean. I wished my English would be a bit better...

So: "Should capital punishment be allowed?"

Start thinking, everybody!
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