Etruscans In and Out

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Etruscans In and Out

Postby Lucius Tyrrhenus Garrulus on Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:47 am

Salvete omnes!
I am interested in two transitions in the history of Rome.
The first when the Etruscan kings took over.
The second when they were 'kicked-out.'
What was the transition like to Etruscan rule?
What happened to the Senate during this period? Was it abolished? Made secondary, like under the Dictator Sulla?
Also does anyone know what life was like for a Latin under Etruscan rule?

I don't need anyone to write a thesis paper for me (although, that would be cool.) Just a push in the right direction. Or where to find such answers.
Thanks
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Postby Tiberius Dionysius Draco on Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:08 pm

Salve Garrule,

I don't know for sure, but was there actually a senate? I don't seem to recall hearing about that. I thought the Roman Kings had al the power to make decisions themselves. Or would that make them Tyrants?

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:29 pm

Salve Garrule,

According to tradition, the last three kings in Rome were Etruscans (I'm writing from the top of my head so don't beat me to splinters if I'm wrong). But the names of the kings suggest that it may have happened earlier (and so do archaeological findings). "Tullus" and "Tullius" are clearly Etruscan names.

However, Piscinus disagrees with me on this topic and sees the area of Etruria and Latium as a cultural area where Latin culture influenced Etruscan culture as much as vice versa. His opinions on this subject are very interesting.

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Postby Lucius Tyrrhenus Garrulus on Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:24 pm

Salvete! S.V.B.E.V.

I would be very interested to get Piscinus' take on this.
I'm not sure if the Senate was in existence or not.
Livy tells us that Romulus instituted the "patres" (fathers), which I guess would be the 'predecessor' to the Senate?
And I found this on the web: 509 B.C. Tarquin is overthrown, Rome is rid of Etruscan rule
Gods, the Romans have so much history!
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:04 pm

Lucius Tyrrhenus Garrulus wrote:And I found this on the web: 509 B.C. Tarquin is overthrown, Rome is rid of Etruscan rule


Livius describes this as a nationalist revolt but some claim that it was actually a rise of the sub-top composed mainly of Etrusco-Romans who didn't put up with the tyranny of the Tarquinii anymore and wanted to install an oligarchy (which they did).

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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sun Oct 26, 2003 3:28 pm

Salvete

The idea that Etruscan kings took over Rome originated in the 19th century for political reasons concerned with the unification of Italy. Italy was mostly united, except for Rome which was still held by the Papacy. So an idea was born that Etruria, i. e. Tuscany was the soul of Italy's glory rather than Rome. This occurred as remains of the Etruscans were first being found. We are still learning about the Etruscans, and about early, and there is nothing to warrant believing this fable about Etruscan kings ruling Roma antiqua. Tarquinius Priscus was a Greek by birth, according to Livy and all other Roman authors I've read. His son was then half Greek and half Etruscan, but still Roman. There was no Etruscan army imposed upon Rome. And Servius was born a slave of unknown origin. The idea of Rome ruled by Etruscans simply misstated what Etruria was, how it was organized, how it was peopled, in order to justify a modern political view. None of it was true.

I am rushed for time, otherwise I 'd make you all suffer through a long tirade on this. A good read on the issue is found in T. J. Cornell's The Beginnings of Rome.

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Postby Lucius Tyrrhenus Garrulus on Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:35 pm

Gnæus Dionysius Draco wrote:Livius describes this as a nationalist revolt but some claim that it was actually a rise of the sub-top composed mainly of Etrusco-Romans who didn't put up with the tyranny of the Tarquinii anymore and wanted to install an oligarchy (which they did).

Wow! This sounds like what Karl Marx, perhaps I should say Antonio Gramsci, would have called a bourgeois revolution.

M Moravi Horati Piscine wrote:The idea that Etruscan kings took over Rome originated in the 19th century for political reasons concerned with the unification of Italy.

Interesting! Perhaps this is why Toscano was made the official Italian dialect.

Your words break my heart though, Piscine. I was hoping to find something more along the lines of Gn. Draco's post... My Latin ancestors, kicking out the invaders, deposing the tyrant, etc...
But Roman Reconstructionists are concerned with FACT, not TRUTH.
Good stuff, Thanks!

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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:03 pm

Salvete,

Picking up another earlier topic :

Garullus wrote :

And I found this on the web: 509 B.C. Tarquin is overthrown, Rome is rid of Etruscan rule


I should add that 509 B.C. is a very fishy date, as it corresponds exactly with the deposition of the Peisistratid tyrants in Athens, just as the canonical year of Rome's foundation, 753 B.C is suspiciously simultaneous with the foundation of the Greek cities in the south of Italy ("Magna Graecia").

Valete,

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Postby Lucius Tyrrhenus Garrulus on Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:27 pm

Salvete!
Quintus Pomponius Atticus wrote:I should add that 509 B.C. is a very fishy date, as it corresponds exactly with the deposition of the Peisistratid tyrants in Athens, just as the canonical year of Rome's foundation, 753 B.C is suspiciously simultaneous with the foundation of the Greek cities in the south of Italy ("Magna Graecia").
Multas gratias. I didn't know that.
I'm trying to decide what is more important to me, fact or fiction.
Take for instance Remus and Romulus. The story is similiar to others in the Mediterranean, and that is why some people have said that it is probably not true. But it is such a great story!
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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:43 pm

Salve Garrule,

Scripsisti :

The story is similiar to others in the Mediterranean, and that is why some people have said that it is probably not true. But it is such a great story!


It is, and the 'divine twins' do indeed seem a universal topos in all mythologies of peoples with Indo-European origins. Here is an article I found about the subject on the internet:

The concept of the ‘divine twins’ is another recurrent theme amongst the IE (Indo-European, add. Atticus) mythologies, known to the Indians, Greeks, Mitannians, Armenians, Persians, Romans, Slavs, Balts and possibly the Germans and Kelts. Castor and Polydeuces (collectively called the Dioscuri, ' horseman gods') in Greece, Amphion and Zethus in Thebes, and Romulus and Remus in Rome were all legendary heroes. The Greeks later deified the Dioscuri, while Romulus was deified in the form of god Quirinus or was assimilated with him.

In Thebes the twins Amphion and Zethus are the local legendary twins whose story closely parallels that of Romulus and Remus. Like the latter, they were abandoned at birth and raised by a shepherd. They also avenged themselves by killing the local king, became rulers of his city Thebes, and built its walls.

The similarity with both the Roman twins and the Dioscuri includes the death of Amphion who, like Remus, was the less bold of the two. While Romulus and Remus were not demonstrably equestrians, their equivalents to the east decidedly were. Amphion and Zethus were called the ‘White Horses’, ‘The Horsemen’, or ‘Riders of White Horses’.

Another link between the Greek and Latin versions is with the abduction of the brides of the Dioscuri's cousins, after which Castor was killed by one of the cousins. The two brides were the daughters of Leucippus ('White Horse') and thus called the Leucippidae. According to Pausanius the Leucippidae were the daughters of Apollo, the sun god. This kidnapping may recall the abduction of the Sabine women by Romulus (Remus was already dead).

The association with horses also recalls the Hindic Asvins, whose name in Sanskrit means ‘horses’. (Skt. asvin, acva; Lith. asvin; Avesta aspa, aspahe, aspô; Thracian esvas, ezvas, esb; Gaelic osan, osain; Hittite asuwa, asu, aswu; ‘horse’). The Indian twins also parallel their Greek equivalents in being eternally young and handsome. The Indian myth diverges from their European counterparts in that neither died, and both were imagined as being sky gods and not mortal heroes. They were the sons of the sun or sky, which relation recalls the Dioscuri's father Zeus or Apollo. Nevertheless, the Hindu myth of twins Chyavana and Sukanya involves Indra admitting the Asvins into the Hindu pantheon as major gods. This suggests that they originated as lesser deities, which we also find in Lithuania. It also parallels Zeus' promotion of the Dioscuri to heaven as the constellation Gemini and the Roman deification of Romulus.

In the Baltic the Asviniai were probably the closest surviving representatives of the original twins. As a pair of steeds pulling the solar chariot, they included the essence of the twins in the other pantheons. Their father was Dievas, the sky god of daylight. Still, like the Dioscuri, they took part a mythological wedding of the heavenly family. Even today, one can still find the roofs of Lithuanian houses decorated with zirgeliai (from Lithuanian zirgas and Latvian zirgs, 'horse'). These are pairs of wooden carvings in the form of steeds' heads. These totems of marriage are relicts of the cult of the twins.

The Norse sun maiden Sol also had horses pulling her solar chariot, named Alsvid (All-Swift) and Arvakr (Early Waker). Like their Baltic counterparts they were also never deified, though they may or may not have been twins. Deified versions of the twins include Vali and Vidar, the avenging god-sons of Odin destined to survive Ragnarok and lead the Aesir remnants into a second Golden Age. These were born in the east and were gods of not only the sunrise but of the new year. Vali especially was identified with the new sun following the winter solstice, and his reverence is still echoed today with St. Valentine's day.

The divine twins in Asia rose to such importance that the Indo-Aryan kings of Mitanni invoked them in a treaty with the Hittites. Dated to 1380 BCE, the Mitanni king Matiwaza evoked in order the Indic gods Mitra, Aruna (Varuna), Indara (Indra), and then the Nasatiya, who were their twin horsemen-gods and which name was also an epithet for the Hindu Asvins. This invocation of divine twins may also have been echoed in Sicily, where the local Greeks swore solemn oaths to the Palici (‘The Returners’), divine twins and sons of Zeus. Here, their mother was believed to have born them secretly in a cave from which they emerged. This story may recall that of Castor who, after dying, was granted semi-immortality by Zeus, and so spent half of his days in the underworld, emerging every other day to visit heaven.

One other Greek myth involving twin sons of Zeus were the Arcadian heroes Parrhasius and Lycastus. According to Plutarch, Ares fathered the twins by a local nymph. Fearing her father, she exposed them on a mountain. However, they were suckled by a she-wolf until discovered by a shepherd who reared them as his own. These twins later seized power in Arcadia.

While Plutarch may have adopted some of the legend of Parrhasius and Lycastus from that of Romulus and Remus, it also shows that the eclectic nature of mythology may also have influenced the story of the Roman twins. Another version has Parrhasius without a twin. He was the son of Zeus, or alternatively of Lycaon (‘the wolf’), and father of Arcus (‘the bear’). He founded the city of Parrhasia, while Arcas gave his name to Arcadia.

This assimilation of the divine twins into the local foundation legend may also have been at work in Rome. There, one alternative foundation story has a heroine named Roma or Rhome as amongst the Trojan refugee settlers of Rome, while others have her as of Italian genealogies. Another foundation character, Romis, was a very early king of the Latins who drove out the Etruscan immigrants who had come from Thessaly via Lydia. Both these characters would have predated the legendary eighth-century BCE Romulus and Remus. It could be that the latter were adapted to the foundation legend of Rome. This would have been early, with the tale coming either from the Etruscans during their Orientalizing period, or from the earliest Greeks. This would also have been earlier than their adoption of the myth of Castor and Polydeuces (Latinized as Pollux), who came to Rome in the fifth century BCE from Magna Grecia. Paralleling the Mitanni twins, the common Latin word for 'oath', mecastor (or ecastor) and edepol, were derived from the names of Castor and Pollux. This pair was also particularly popular among the equites.

Tacitus also referenced divine twin sons as being important to the Naharnavali tribe north of the Danube. These they called the Alcis. While the ethnicity of this tribe is uncertain, it does show that this theme was important also in this area at this early date. A La Tene vase from Central Europe depicts a pair of horsemen bonded together by a beam or cord. They thus indicate the divine twins were also important in Gaulish mythology.

The twin horsemen may also be detected in the Saxon leaders Hengst and Horsa. Although not referenced as twins, these legendary brothers, who led the first Germanic colonization in Britain, nevertheless parallel their counterparts across the southern tier of IE peoples. As with Romulus and Remus in Rome and Amphion and Zethus in Thebes, they are mortal heroes associated with the ‘foundation’ legend. In Britain Hengst was the leading character, paralleling Romulus, with his brother playing a secondary role similar to that of Remus. The names of the German pair also draw direct parallels to their southern counterparts. The names of the Saxon heroes both mean ‘horse’(ON hross, OE hors, OHG hros ‘horse’; OE hengest, OHG hengist ‘gelding’; NHG hengst, Dan. and Sw. hingst ‘stallion’).

The Slavs also had their divine twins Lel and Polel, also referenced as Lelum and Polelum. They were supposedly the sons of the Lada (the war god) and the goddess Liada or Leda (love and beauty goddess). Long ago they were equated to the Roman Castor and Pollux, and venerated into the Christian era, though little was recorded about their nature. Most probably they were connected with fertility and abundance, as were the divine twins in general.

The Persian and Armenian twin gods were fertility gods. The Armenian versions Haurot and Maurot were amongst the imports from Iranian mythology, where were found Haurvatat (‘Health’) and Amyrytat (‘Immortality’).

The Celts do not have a demonstrably equivalent pair of divine twins in their myths that have come down to us. However, some stories suggest that this theme may have faded by historic times but was not completely forgotten. For instance, the Irish goddess Macha gave birth to twins after winning a horse race. There is also the tale of Eber and Eremon that recalls the story of Romulus and Remus. These brothers were the only surviving sons of Milesius, a leader who colonized Ireland. Eremon was the first Milesian king of Ireland, and slew his brother in a dispute for the kingship. Eremon thereafter founded the High Kingship at Tara.

More Celtic traces of the 'divine twins' myth may be detected in the story of the Welsh god Lleu Llaw Gyffes, whose twin brother Dylan jumped into the sea at birth (for more parallels see The Prodigal Son Returns and The Amber Connection).

While western 'twin' myths generally share the eastern versions with their equestrian associations, they also have a tendency of having a weaker brother who perishes, and do not have clear solar origins. However, the immortalization and deification of Polydeuces and Romulus and the deaths of Castor and Remus suggest astral associations linked to the planet Mercury as morning and evening stars. Leading the sun over the horizon like a solar steed in the morning, Castor's progressive rise heaven-ward was a metaphor for his ascent to Olympus, while Polydeuces' was a gradual descent into the western ocean and his death.

The IE versions of this myth also seem linked to the Near East, where the twins Shaher and Shalem were the twin Morning and Evening stars in Canaan and no doubt once over a much larger area. They survived in Persia as attendants of the solar god Mithra, depicted with the Morning Star deity holding his torch upwards while his Evening Star twin held his downwards.

At some point, various peoples began to commonly recognize that the Morning and Evening stars were the same and new myths began to be constructed around the single god. Plato recognized Aster, originally only the morning star, as sort of a death-and-resurrection god. These two stars were probably also combined in the myth of Phaeton, a mortal son of the sun who impetuously once rode the solar chariot across the sky but lost control, forcing Zeus to blast him with a thunderbolt. Phaeton went down in a flame, crashing into the 'World River'.

In Canaanite myth Shaher was cast down from heaven after trying to usurp the throne of the sun god. This innocuous story was recycled into Judeo-Christian religion as Lucifer and his host of fallen angels who had been cast out of heaven. This was even though Lucifer was originally no more than the Roman version of the Morning Star ('Light Bringer'). The demonization of Lucifer and the story of his fall from heaven also synchronizes with the story of Ahriman of Persia. This Zoroastrian 'prince of lies' was also defeated and retreated into darkness with his host of demons where he would plot against the 'god of light' Ahura Mazda -- his twin brother.

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Celtic Sacred Twins & Etruscans

Postby Anonymous on Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:07 pm

Salve Attice

The Celts certainly do seem to have had broadly equivalent myths concerning various sets of sacred twins. I must however agree that by historical times these myths had become rather unclear, no doubt partially due to the ancient Celtic resistance to putting things down in writing.
I have however come across a quote in Diodorus Siculus who says:-

'The Kelts who dwell along the ocean venerate the Dioskuroi above any of the Gods, since they have a tradition handed down from ancient times that these Gods appeared among them coming from the ocean.'.(4.56.4)

It is quite interesting that these Celtic 'Dioskuroi' are clearly linked with the sea, as are the twins Lleu Llaw Gyffes and Dylan in particularly. I'm also conscious that one of the oldest stories found in the Mabinogion concerns the twins Nynniaw and Peibaw both of whom have a strong relationship with the night sky as of course do Castor and Pollux.

As regards the Etruscans it does seem to me that a lot of the speculation on this and other ancient historical matters is often passed through a modern filter, ie that of the 20th Century nation state and corresponding attitudes to race. The Etruscans and the Latins seem to have shared so many aspects of their cultures that it is difficult to see exactly where the dividing line is drawn. I'm also conscious of the legends of Aeneas' settlement in Italy and while the historical accuracy of the account may be questionable the very fact that the Romans could happily claim descent from a mixed Trojan, Latin and Aboriginal stock would seem to imply that they themselves recognized the complex nature of their relationship with their neighbours.

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Re: Celtic Sacred Twins & Etruscans

Postby Horatius Piscinus on Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:39 pm

Salvete Brute et omnes

Caius Durnovarius Brutus wrote: the very fact that the Romans could happily claim descent from a mixed Trojan, Latin and Aboriginal stock would seem to imply that they themselves recognized the complex nature of their relationship with their neighbours.


Ita. The Tyrrhenian coastal region in the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age, in which Latium and Etrusca arose, would be better described as a Mediterranean culture rather than try to distinguish out what contributions were made by different ethnic groups in the area or trying to distinguish what foreign influences were exerted on it. The fact is that contacts between Italy and the Eastern Mediterranean existed before the protovillanovans, and those contacts flowed in both directions. The oldest example of the "Greek" alphabeth appears in Latium before it can be found in Greece and before any "Greek influence" can be found in Latium. The "Etruscan style temple" is found in Latium before it is found in Etrusca. The cloaca is found at Rome, in the Alban Hills and in Etrusca at so close a time that no one knows where it first began. With smaller artifacts it is more difficult to determine an origin. Each city may have had a distinguishable difference - although not really more than a variation from one to the other - but in each there is no distinguishing Latins, Sabines, Etruscans or Ausonians, or even Greeks and Phoenicians. All these different peoples were living in and part of the local variant of a Mediterranean culture.

Complex? Only for those in modern times trying to make sense of it. Those living in the Tyrrhenian region did not have much of a problem recognizing the cosmopolitan nature of their societies.

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Re: Celtic Sacred Twins & Etruscans

Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:10 am

M Moravi Horati Piscine wrote:... Those living in the Tyrrhenian region did not have much of a problem recognizing the cosmopolitan nature of their societies.


Except Cato Maior ;).

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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:52 am

Yes, but a few centuries later than the period Piscinus was describing of course :wink:

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Servius Tullius /Mastarna

Postby Anonymous on Thu Aug 26, 2004 7:48 am

Salve !!!
Storming in this very interesting and erudite discussion i have some remarks.

Servius Tullius is long known as Mastarna a adventurer ( a kind of condotieri avant la lettre ) from Vulci.
Together with to other condotieri from Vulci( the brothers Vibenna ) and other Etruscan allies they attacked an army of a certain Gnaeus Tarquin from Rome and his Etruscan allies.

Behold it were private armies the cities involved were not at war.
It were private undertakings.
Well in the end Mastarna ( Magister in Latin ) succeeded to become king under the name of Servius Tullius.

The story of the battle between the prominent leaders ( the Vibenna were first captured and then freed by Mastarna and together they slaughter their captors ) was depicted around 330ac in the frescoes of the Tomba Francois.

It is a nostalgic propaganda painting of good times for the Etruscans in a far away golden age when they were powerful and Rome not.
The owner of the Tomb Vel Satiis had depicted this bloody story in his grave tomb.( i would prefer a banquet as accompaniying to eternity).
The Romans and there allies ( also Etruscan Aristocrats) are are associated with the Trojans anMastarna theVibenna and their allies are associated with the Greeks.

So on theleft is depicted the ritual slaughter of Trojan captives by Achilles in honour for Patroklus.

And on the right the slaughter of the Roman Aristo and his allies by Mastarna and the Vibenna andtheir allies.

The Fresco,s are normally in the Villa Torlione/Albani as private property.
But this year theoriginals were to see in the museum of Vulci ( The Ponte Del Badia )
We did visit and by some books about it.
And then you could visit the gigantic Tomba Francois .
Very impressive.

But one of the interesting conclusions you see how fluent the boundery between Latin an d Etruscan is.
The Tarquin has Etruscan Allies .
And how funny that the Etruscans want to associate themself with the Greeks!!!

Question wich was earlier the hen or the egg?
In other words which legend was earlier fabricated the Roman Trojan connection or the Etruscan Greek asociaton.
Who responded to who with a counter leged.

Modern interpretations take the periodisation and chronology of the Roman kings wich much grains of salt.
The chronology and names are absolutely untrustworthy.

And 509 a semi mythological catastrofal date Also Sybaris was in that year destroyed by Crotone .

So the Roman myth machine linked up with propaganda to style itself old and of the same rank as thegreeks with wich they had a love /hate relation ship.
So i go to my morning coffee at 7.45 am.
see you
Turan :):):)
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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:45 pm

Salve Turan,

Just a question: are you a member of the SVR? If so, would you be so kind as to use your Roman name as a board name here? If you aren't a member, no problem, move along and keep your name :).

Also, a question on the Etruscans. What books have you read or could you recommend on them?

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Postby Quintus Pomponius Atticus on Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:18 pm

Salvete Draco, Turan aliique,

Perhaps it should be clarified that being a member of this forum does not imply one is automatically a member of SVR. To be a member of SVR, it is necessary to fill in the application form located at http://www.societasviaromana.org/home/application.php.

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:36 pm

Salve Attice,

I am very much aware of this :).

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Postby Horatius Piscinus on Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:25 pm

Salve Dionysi

Considering all the nomines Graeci we have running around in our societas, are you posing the Razennae not keep their proud heritage, and we not ackowledge their contribution by not accepting those who retain their nomines Etruscanae? You accept a Hannibal but not a lovely Turan?

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names

Postby Anonymous on Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:17 pm

Well it never occured to me to have a Roman name as a Etruscan.
My Etruscan name is turanclancath shortened to Turan or Don Turan for intimi.

The name turanclancath is a construction of mine in Etruscan tradition .
3 elements turan clan cath

So in Etruscan way i can make it is Turan Clan Cath.
And then you can adress me as Turan .
As i forget to much names i,m always turanclancath on the net so please let it be that way.

I tried to insertan Avatar but failed Why ?
Greetings from Turan
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