the Black Athena controversy

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the Black Athena controversy

Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:28 pm

Salvete

I thought it would be great to post this topic here. Robert Graves was one of first I think, whos aid that Athena originated from Africa, although other more reliable scholars don't agree on this.
A book called Black Athena by Martin Bernal seem to take this a step further by claiming that Africa had a profound impact on Greece and its civilisation. One of the things in this controversy is that Egyptians and Phoenicians invaded Greece during the 2nd millenium B.C.
Did I miss this fact or what? When did this happen?
I know the whole Athena out of Africa is nothing more than speculative. Burkert seem to sugegst that she came to Greece through Asia Minor was originally a near eastern deity with the name Anat or Ishtar.
Appearently according to some, some Afro- Americans want to promote some agenda where Africans were the ones who created the Western civlisation and not Europeans. Than you have the people who hate those guys for promoting this type of agenda. It is no different from those biggots who hate it that gays use Greek and Roman mythology as a way to shuff some gay agenda down their throat.
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/blackathenadebate.html
that is the url of a webpage where it is all about.
Any thoughts on this?
valete

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:41 pm

Khaire Romoule,

While I agree that the ancient Egyptians taught the Greeks a lot (which the Greeks never denied), but I fail to see what this has to do with Afrocentrism. Egypt is part of the continent Africa, but has always been in a cultural sphere that is vastly different from "black" Africa. As far as I know Egypt has always been inhabited by Semito-Hamitic peoples.

Although it is true of course, that traditional archaeologists and historians have a hard time letting go of their own prejudices or bend out of shape to give an explanation to "unexplicable" things. Egypt sure is a puzzling civilisation, but I truly fail to see the connection to black Africa.

What do you think?

Kat'èrènèn,
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PS: There is hardly such a thing as "the gay agenda". Seems like a good old conspiracy theory to me ;).
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Postby Aulus Dionysius Mencius on Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:05 pm

Mi Draco,

As you may know, history in general is my thing. And when I was young, I Have had an Egytian phase for several years. (followed by a romano-greec one, and now an oriental one,...)

And I agree with you on the fact that Egypt differs greatly from black Africa. Your analysis about the Semito-Hamitic peoples is hitting right on the nail, amice. At least in my limited knowledge...

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:56 pm

Khaire Draco

It is the first ever I see you misspelling my name. Romoule, Draco? :?
Anyway, I can understand that the Egyptians thaught the Greeks, but like you I fail to see that this has anything to do with afrocentrism. Maybe its anew conspiracy to say to the world that Blacks created civilisation, not the white peoples.
I guess the author is no different from what Robert Graves tried to do with Greek religion, trying to see in everything a tripple goddess or some new age type of thing. When it coems to history, people tend to romanticize, just when it comes down to religion. Today I was accused of beign anti- feminist just because I prefer facts of romanticizing the historical role of women in antiquity.

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Postby Gnaeus Dionysius Draco on Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:39 pm

Khaire Romoule,

Yes, the Greek spelling of your name would be "Romoulos" :).

Civilisation was created by all peoples of the world. Blacks, whites, Asians, name it, you got it ;).

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Postby Quintus Aurelius Orcus on Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:24 am

Khaire Draco or is it Drakon

No really? :wink: Now that is a fact I didn't know. Thnx for sharing that bit with me. :) :wink:

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Postby Curio Agelastus on Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:16 am

Salvete omnes,

It seems to me that the very idea of civilisation is a bit vague. Since civilisation itself is split into regions that show cultural or societal similarities, to say that any one culture created civilisation is patently ridiculous. Black Africans, created Black African society. Egyptians created Egyptian civilisation. The Greeks were certainly influenced by the Egyptians, just as the Romans were influenced by the Greeks. This is why the Mediterranean civilisations do bear certain resemblances.

However, it's not until the modern age, with modern telecommunications and travel, that civilisations are able to have an impact, both political and cultural, all over the world. To say therefore that all the cultures of the world can be tracked back to Black African is as ludicrous as suggesting that it stems from any other one area.

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